Unintended consequences
Journalist Richard Halloran spent 10 days in Japan talking to government officials, diplomats, business executives, military officers, scholars, journalists, and private citizens, and came away with a conclusion that really should surprise no one at all. If the recent anti-Japanese protests in China and South Korea were intended to influence Japanese attitudes and behavior, he notes in this article in the Japan Times, they succeeded—by hardening Japanese attitudes against both those countries.
He reports that the Japanese have now developed a “deep-seated” anger toward the Chinese and a sense of disdain toward the South Koreans.
Here’s a selection of some of the attitudes he encountered:
A diplomat referring to the Koreans: “They have gone over to the Chinese side.”
After US$30 billion in aid to rebuild Chinese infrastructure and similar aid to South Korea: “No matter what we do, the Chinese and Koreans will always demand more.”
A musician: “Among my friends, the general feeling is ‘enough is enough’.”
Halloran cites how apparent Chinese and Korean intentions have backfired to create the opposite effect.
- The demonstrations in China and South Korea were intended to “intimidate Japan into diplomatic submission. Instead, the Japanese have become defiant.”
- Chinese demanded that the Japanese reflect on their actions in WWII and the recent textbook revisions. Instead, this exposed them as hypocrites in Japanese eyes for ignoring the millions of deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and their own standard textbooks that are even less forthcoming than the optional one offered in Japan.
- The Chinese and the Koreans wanted to prevent Japan from gaining a seat on the U.N. Security Council. Instead, the Japanese have allied with India, Germany, and Brazil asking for joint admission.
- The Chinese wanted to prevent Japan from strengthening its military forces. Instead, their efforts gave impetus to efforts to revise the peace clause in the Japanese Constitution. They also have caused more people in Japan to seriously consider developing nuclear weapon capabilities.
Halloran didn’t note that the Chinese demonstrations have accelerated moves in Japan to cut off Japanese ODA to China. The Japanese have been very generous over the years, and the financial assistance surely helped fuel rapid Chinese economic growth. For their part, the Chinese (when they were aware of it) considered the aid as postwar reparations. Their myopic demagoguery is about to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
Hope they’re happy in Beijing and Seoul.
Poor Mari….she’s my favorite. If I ever become a j-pop singer and part of the...
The Japanese needed no incentive to dislike Koreans, and vice-versa. The problem is, the Japanese royal family is believed to have descended from Koreans. Shikatta ga nai…
May 25th, 2005 at 12:19 amOne quote summed it all perfectly
“No matter what we do, the Chinese and Koreans will always demand more.”
So why bother trying to be conciliatory when these two countries have no desire to forgive. Their only desire is to extort more money.
May 25th, 2005 at 1:01 amNothing new nor surprising. Japanese attitudes towards China have been negative since the 90’s onwards. The recent anti-Japanese protests in China didn’t emerge in a vacuum nor did it shift Japanese opinions decisively. It would be more accurate to say it delivered the coup de grace to already frazzled relations.
As for ODA as a golden egg, I would beg to differ. Foreign developemental loans and aid are notoriously prone to corruption and malfiance, the likely scenario is that much of the money either indirectly went into the pockets of Chinese politicians or the “acquaintances” of donators.
May 25th, 2005 at 7:32 amPacRim, that is rubbish. Yes, many of the odler generation don’t like Koreans. They have been getting replaced by a younger generation with a great interest in Korea and none of the prejudice. Or they were, until recent Korean behavior made them think twice.
Here’s the problem, Japan is an advanced country, and new generations naturally will lose the prejudice of the older generation. Korea and China, though, have the opposite trend. Younger generations are more racist, and more aggressive.
It’s obvious which side provides the threat to peace (hint, they don’t speak Japanese).
May 25th, 2005 at 8:18 amEven if we lay aside the question of Japan’s view of its WW2 crimes, even if China and South Korea are 100% right about that, they are still shooting themselves in the foot. Making Japan feel rattled is just gonna raise the hand of the people who want to re-arm.
Whatever its faults in the past, its to Japan’s great credit that they are voluntarily pacifist. If they reverse that decision, Korea and China will only have themselves to blame for stupidly poking their finger in Japan’s eye.
May 25th, 2005 at 9:12 amWhat’s sad is that Korea was oppressed by China for far longer than by Japan. And the whole reason the Korean pennisula is split is because of the Chinese (and the UN); the USMC weren’t fighting Japanese soldiers in 1952. China can be as mad as they want to, but Korea and Japan had such a good thing going there for a while. The cultures and languages are so similar it’s really a pitty they can’t get along. At least the US, Australia and Japan have a more close relationship than ever. If we could just pull Korea into the fold, it’d really be a nice thing.
May 25th, 2005 at 10:59 amDaily linklets 25th May
Thailand terrorism and the links with Malaysia and al-Qaeda. Phil notes a case of Australian hypocricy. More on China’s virgin prostitutes…it gives new meaning to “miscarriage of justice”. After the NYT’s report on a Chinese blogger and their gr…
May 25th, 2005 at 12:59 pmGee, maybe Japan should make an actual apology unlike the pretend ones they have made so far. Also, just maybe, their leaders might think about not visiting a shrine that honors war criminals.
But, of course, the Japanese are ALWAYS the victim. “Oh look at how much we do and nobody loves us!” It doesn’t work in countries that know the truth.
May 25th, 2005 at 1:05 pmOne thing about Koreans. No apology from a foreigner is ever sincere. I suppose Japan could apologize again, but why bother? It would never be sincere enough for Korea and China.
“No matter what we do, the Chinese and Koreans will always demand more.”
Japan just has to realize China and Korea are not sincere and mature partners for peace and prosperity in Asia. Japan still has to put minimal effort in working with China because it is such a big and important player in Asia and the world. But just forget about unimportant Korea. Besides, they just do what China tells them to do anyways.
May 25th, 2005 at 8:28 pmThat is untrue AK. Murayama Tomiichi is considered a hero in Korea for his sincere apology and how he tried to get all of Japan to apologize.
Most of Koreans just want sincerity.
May 25th, 2005 at 11:07 pmKing Ko Ree U.
Korea has never considered ANY Japanese apology as sincere. Most Koreans still say Japan has never apologized and then when confronted with facts they then say “Well….it was insincere.”
More more more
May 26th, 2005 at 2:11 amAh, the ignorance is amazing. Do you know who Murayama Tomiichi is and what he did? Koreans treat him like a celebrity. Why? Because he tried, and failed, to get the Diet to vote for an apology.
Do you have any clue why Korea doesn’t consider Japan to have apologized? Because, in 1995 Japan agreed to have the Diet vote on a national apology, one that would be considered to be from the entire nation. Murayama did his best to make this happen but it was a dismal failure. The ‘apology’ the Diet made was an embarrassment and most of the Diet refused to vote. Murayama made a wonderful apology, one that Koreans accept. But they accept it as coming from him and not the nation, just like any apology from an individual Prime Minister or the emperor.
In 1995, Japan made the commitment to apologize as a nation. They failed to do so. 4.5 MILLION Japanese signed a petition saying the nation shouldn’t apologize. Yet, you and others try and say they have. What a joke. They never have. Individuals have, some sincerely like Tomiichi some not like Koizumi.
Until the nation of Japan fulfills the promise it made in 1995, any apology made will be looked at for what it is, so much hot air.
May 26th, 2005 at 2:25 amSince I have not spent much time in China or North Korea, my comments do not apply to them since I wouldn’t be able to say anything reasonably informed anyway. So I will reserve what I have to say about the South. It is easy to assume that Koreans are overly irrational and just mindlessly react to what they consider provocation. For the record I not only do I not condone the protests or the hate but I hope that one day Korea will be able to move beyond it, and soon. And the hypocrisy over textbooks is, however imperfectly, recognized here. But how about for a moment we stop arrogantly looking down on Koreans and try to sympathize with them for a moment and then conduct a thought experiment? Let’s ask ourselves, if they are in fact not crazy what may be the matter?
“No matter what we do, the Chinese and Koreans will always demand more” you say?
Well here is the problem. Over here (in Korea) when you manage to get through the rage, there is this lingering feeling that in fact the Japanese do not appreciate the effect that Japanese imperialism had on Koreans. It was pretty terrible, and despite that many people in old Chosun decided it was better to cooperate with Imperial authorities and make the best of being oppressed, does not make it any less terrible for a lot of other people. So no pitiful distracting excuses about Koreans who collaborated with the Japanese, please.
It’s really quite lame.
Many people on the side of the Sea of Japan feel, and I will be honest that I am sympathetic to this view, that paying off the victim with money does not necessarily equate to sincerely feeling regretful for past wrongs. Money does not always make it better. Yes, Japan paid and still pays out a lot of money, and yes Korea has benefited from it enormously. That “blood money” as it is know here along with the help of the Japanese steel industry made it possible, when it was thought to be impossible, to develop the ultra-profitable POSCO for example. But maybe, even in the face of resentment and envy, it would be more prudent for Japanese people who say, “Look at all we have done for them! When will it be enough?” to say, “Considering our history, it was the least we could do.” Besides I personally believe that despite what anyone say or thinks, more than anything Koreans don’t really want money – Koreans will always cave in if a truly sincere apology is made. But maybe you have to learn a little bit about Koreans to know that.
Despite it being convenient to believe otherwise, the Prime Minister of Japan visiting a shrine with 14 class A war criminals enshrined in it is not an insignificant event. Though most thinking people probably can be made to realize that Koizumi is not worshipping the war criminals themselves (I hope). They just get angry when they see it, and see it as a symbol of a Japan that while claiming to be sorry is in fact not – even if that’s not the case.
I think it can be safe to say that this has not been good for Japan’s international relations, despite Koizumi having said that he himself does not believe his little visits hurt Japan’s national interests. You’re right! Korean’s are not satisfied. Maybe Korean’s will be satisfied when they feel that the Japanese are on their side. When they see the day when the Japanese public rises up against and vote out of office insensitive politicians whose collective behavior does not reflect the nature of the good member of the international system that Japan strives to be.
And get this, there are lots of Koreans that look up to the Japanese as friends. They truly love Japan and want both nations to kiss and make up and they play nice together. Yet they can’t come to understand why their friend doesn’t get why they feel hurt. Though I admit in Korea this is in part fueled by anti-Japanese propaganda in the education system (along with anti-Americanism), it would have been there anyway. But looking it at this way, might you not ask, maybe Koreans don’t feel Japan actually cares about the history, it just does the minimum, and the outrage seen in protests is driven by people who feel, right or wrong, that Japanese people just don’t get it.
Since I have never visited Japan I can’t answer the questions on my mind and so I pose it to the residents of Japan. Do you feel that most segments (in democracies “ALL” are near impossible things) of Japanese society are fully aware of all that went on during what is known here as “The Age of Japanese Imperialism”? Do Japanese look down on Koreans as dirty inferior people who may have gotten what they deserved? Do Japanese feel that what their ancestors did was wrong? Does the government? And if they disagree with what the government is doing, do they make that opinion heard? I ask the questions because I really truly am interested, and not in a mean spirited way.
But please while you thinking of something to say (if that is anyone bothers to respond)…
Don’t compare what the British or the Americans or the Chinese or whatever other imperialist power did to whatever other country because in reality that has very little bearing on the issue. By that I mean, just because Tommy hit Punjab and got away with it, does not mean that it is okay for Akira to have hit Chulsu. It certainly matters very little difference to Chulsu who might just as well be thinking, “Well someone else got clobbered too, so I have very little business complaining, do I? No Sir!” just as it did not matter to a Korea that did not participate in 19th century style imperialism.
Furthermore let’s not try to waste more time with all this trash about the good Japan did for Korea at that time, please. Arguments that Chosun society was utterly backward and that the nobility oppressed their people so badly already that what the Japanese who carried through colonial administration did is not a big deal, or that is was a great social development for the average Korean person, is hardly going to win you any points in the country that has been colonized. Or since the colonial authorities improved the physical infrastructure of the country Koreans should be at some level thankful is at best naive and at worst disgustingly insensitive. White man’s burden, yellow man’s burden it’s all a bunch of garbage designed to mask the brutal nature of what colonization is. Anything that was done in Korea at the time, whether “good” or “bad”, was done for the benefit of the Japanese Empire. Land grab is land grab is land grab!
Anyway I am too tired to make this sound logical, so just try to assume it was logical and speak what you think.
May 26th, 2005 at 2:48 amPlease excuse the several glaring spelling and gramatical errors.
May 26th, 2005 at 10:43 amKing Ko Ree Lo
“Ignorant” Wow!!! I hope in the future we can have a civil debate without the mud slinging.
Koreans don’t treat Murayama Tomiichi as a celebrity. A vast majority of Koreans don’t even know the guy. How can one be a celebrity if only 10% of the people know the guy and what he did? Only half of those actually think his apology was sincere enough.
Every other country offers apologies through their President/Prime Minister. You know the person democratically elected by the people to represent the people.
First, Korea demanded an official apology from a Prime Minister of Japan. A reasonable and well deserved request uh….demand. When they got one it was not worded properly or sincere enough. You know the kind of apology accepted all around the world because it was given sincerely by the leader of the particular country. Korea wanted more more more.
Then, Korean wanted a “sincere” official apology. OK difference of opinion on what is sincere. Japan can give in and offer that. Murayama Tomiichi’s apology was sincere enough to some people and not sincere to others. Even to the people that thought it was sincere enough, the apology wasn’t uh…good enough somehow because even though it was meant to be an official apology from all of Japan it was only taken as a personal apology from Korea even though it is the diplomatic norm to have a leader of a country apologize. Korea changed its mind, it wanted more more more.
“Until the nation of Japan fulfills the promise it made in 1995, any apology made will be looked at for what it is, so much hot air.” What if they did fulfill the “promise” of 1995? Korea would still want more more more. There was no mention of Japan being able to honor its war dead in that “promise”. Korea would then just change its mind again and want more more more. Japan can’t visit its war dead would be the next demand. After Japan agreed to stop its sovereign and basic human right to honor their war dead I’m sure Korea would change its mind again and want more more more.
Why bother trying to appease the unappeasable?
May 26th, 2005 at 2:08 pmAK: You are spouting things you know nothing about. People gather to see Tomiichi when he visits Korea, they are VERY aware of what he did and what he tried to do. Have you ever been there when he has come? I have. I’ve seen and been part of the throngs wanting to greet him.
Have you ever read what even happened in 1995?
If so, there is no possible way you can intimate that Japan, as a nation, has apologized.
Korea never demanded an apology from a prime minister, they wanted an apology from Japan. If you again read what happened in 1995, Japan agreed! That is agreed until it came time to actually do the deed. Then the arrogance and duplicity of many Japanese was shown in all its malignant glory.
Saying that Korea will just want more is fallacious. The problem isn’t with Korea, it is with Japan. It is with a people that just don’t want to recognize the horrors they committed on another nation. When 4.5 million citizens can sign a petition saying they don’t want to apologize, there is a problem. It shows just how big of a lie it is when Japnophiles try and say the Japanese understand WWII and their role in it.
Japan, as a nation, needs to finally own up to its past and do the right thing. Until then 1995 will continue to show the delusion of those that want to say Japan has done its part to atone for the atrocities it committed.
May 26th, 2005 at 11:05 pm4.5 million citizens can sign a petition
What was the wording of the petition?
May 26th, 2005 at 11:58 pmKing Ko-ree-u
“Have you ever read what even happened in 1995?”
The fact that I wrote that the wording of the petition didn’t mention Japan’s right to honor their war dead would indicate to most people that I have read the document and am knowledgeable about, thus have read about “what happened in 1995. But I guess you didn’t figure that subtlety out so let me state in perfect clarity that I have read the document in question and have indeed “read what happened in 1995”. Just because my interpretation is different from yours does not mean I am not knowledgeable about it.
If I owned an advertising company I would hire you in a minute. The very ability to make it seem that Tomiichi is a celebrity is a real gift to suspend reality. Walk down the street and ask just ten Koreans if they know who Tomiichi is and what he did and you would be lucky to get two people who know about him and the 1995 resolution- frustratingly one of which would say his apology was not sincere.
“When 4.5 million citizens can sign a petition saying they don’t want to apologize, there is a problem.”
King Ko Ree U, I think the problem is you have not read about what happened in 1995. As diamondback infers in his post, it was the wording that some people had a problem with. Not the basic premise of a standard apology. If you want I can recommend a good web site you can read to find out what happened in 1995. Wait it isn’t a Korean web site so you might not be able to access it because it might be considered “Pro Japanese” to Korea. I forgot Korea does not allow its citizens to access all internet sites especially any that have a diversity of opinions on Japan’s apology. Sorry I just figured out you probably have read the Korean version of what happened in 1995 but because of the ban on any diverse opinions or (“Pro Japanese” web sites as Korea likes to say) you are not able to access differing thoughts about the event in question. I guess Korea really is warming towards China and their police state. BTW has South Korea ever demanded an apology from China and North Korea for more recent wrongs suffered by South Koreans? The answer is no.
May 27th, 2005 at 4:09 am“If so, there is no possible way you can intimate that Japan, as a nation, has apologized.”
I guess the impossible is possible.” The fact that a Prime Minister, sorry many Prime Ministers have apologized shows very simply and clearly Japan has apologized. Again if you want I can give you some web sites that state the multiple apologies by Prime ministers of Japan. These prime ministers are elected representatives of the people to act on their behalf. It is also a diplomatic norm for a Leader of the nation to apologize on behalf of the people of the particular nation. But Korea wants…. You guessed it more more more.
Please just answer me just one question. If Japan did pass the 1995 resolution, that says nothing about Japan’s right to honor their war dead, would it really be enough for Korea? Would Korea not want more more more and demand Japan not honor its war dead at their shrine of choice?
You guys are really funny. It shows just how blinded you are to think that Japan has actually apologized. bwahahahahahaha…
Even current lawmakers in Japan see the lie.
Fukumoto criticized the premier’s repeated visits during an upper house Budget Committee session last Friday, saying, “It’s just like offering prayers at a grave of Hitler.”
It takes rightwing japnophile hacks to think Japan has atoned for its past crimes.
Here is the link for the above quote.
May 27th, 2005 at 9:57 amJapan had the living crap pounded out of it during WWII, vast areas of the country destroyed, millions killed, people close to starvation, occupied by military powers for years afterward, had a new constitution written for it, its government and institutions entirely changed, and has never given any indication of resuming that behaviro and you think people who weren’t alive at the time have to tell other people who weren’t alive at the time they’re sorry for something somebody did to somebody else? On top of which, the apology would be rejected any time the wind happened to change direction and it suited the political purpose of the recipients.
I wouldn’t go around calling people “funny” if I were you.
May 27th, 2005 at 10:22 amOh please. Don’t play the freakin victim card. Japan was responsible for the death and suffering of untold millions of Asians. They tortured, raped and pillaged their way across Asia and treated POWs worse than animals. They started the damn war and YES THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE LIVING that suffered under Japan’s rule. NOTHING is more disingenuous than pulling that kind of ‘Japan’s a victim’ bs.
Next, you make an assumption that a sincere apology wouldn’t be accepted with no basis in fact. We won’t know what will happen until an actual sincere apology is made since IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED.
You have Koizumi telling folks how sorry he is and then visiting a shrine that honors war criminals. You have your own lawmakers saying it is wrong and you have the head of Toyota saying it too, how many others have to join the chorus?
You are even more funny than the others.
May 27th, 2005 at 10:49 am“They started the damn war…”
And they paid for it. In spades. No playing the victim there.
I wonder about people who live other people’s lives for them 60 years in the past. Nothing better to do, I guess.
Korea got its apology, several times. But there’s a reason they can’t accept it. They just can’t grow up and move on. I think they’re scared of having to act like adults in their foreign policy. Being an adult means being responsible for themselves. I don’t think they can handle it.
In fact, there are reports that is exactly the case. Over the years, in negotiations between Japan and South Korea, Japan backed down and gave in when South Korea played the colonial card. Koizumi doesn’t do that.
So the Koreans lost the only leverage they have with Japan and instead of behaving like an adult and coming up with another plan, like an adult, they scream and stomp their feet on the floor because they lost their baby pacifier.
May 27th, 2005 at 11:18 amIn 2002 two American G.I.s accidentally ran over and killed 2 middle school girls. It was a terrible accident.
About a dozen U.S. officials apologized. But Korea wanted more. Who did they want to apologize? George Bush the President- not the Senate.
Bush did apologize but it was not good enough somehow. Korea wanted more more more. Bush apologized again and there are still a lot of Koreans that still claim Bush has not apologized and wants more more more. Huh I see a pattern here.
Why ask for an apology from Bush? Because he is the elected leader of America and represents America. When he apologizes it is from all of America. This is the world diplomatic standard and that is why Korea called for Bush to apologize.
Why does Korea ask more of Japan? Japan’s Prime Minister(S) have already apologized and Korea just wants more more more . Korea will never be appeased- that is the pattern.
May 27th, 2005 at 5:23 pmAK: This is really simple.
First, 2002. They don’t want more apologies, they want the soldiers punished, something that will not happen. That and anti-US folks want something to shout about.
Trying to compare that, a one time incident, to the atrocities committed by Japan against Korea for which Korea wants an apology is ridiculous.
Japan itself in 1995 recognized that the ONLY way to apologize as a nation is for the Diet to vote and apologize. Period. Why? Well, for one, only the members of the Diet are elected by the people. The Prime Minister isn’t. But, for whatever reason, the understood what had to happen.
They BLEW IT.
Going back and trying to say, erase that, a Prime Minister’s words is enough just won’t cut it.
Nice try though.
May 27th, 2005 at 10:53 pmsmarlinghue: Why don’t you actually learn and read about what Japan did before you say they’ve ‘paid for it’. There really is not way to pay for the half century of atrocities they committed.
As far as the apologies go, they are like so much spit in the wind from most Prime Ministers. A few have meant it and they have been praised. It is time for “Japan” to make one and mean it.
Even Japan’s only people in Government and Business are starting to realize just how badly Japan has screwed up.
But go ahead, it’s easier to blame Korea, one of the ones that was brutilized.
May 27th, 2005 at 11:03 pmEven more is coming from Japanese.
It is also questionable whether Japan is doing its share as a responsible member of the international community.
Some people argue that it is unreasonable to distinguish between victors and vanquished nations 60 years after the end of World War II.
Although I won’t completely deny such vague feelings as wrong, we must also squarely face the reality that 60 years after the war, Japan still has no Asian friends who trust it.
In other words, Japan has yet to settle its history that led to World War II.
Also in this regard, Japan is completely different from Germany, which has positively made an effort to reconcile with its neighbors. The fact that China and South Korea are opposing Japan’s bid to become a permanent member of the Security Council is also a sign that Japan is not ready for the post.
May 27th, 2005 at 11:11 pmKing Ko-ree-u
I was not trying to compare the one time accident that killed 2 middle school girls to the level of atrocities Japan committed during WWII.
I was showing a pattern in Korea’s behavior. Korea asked for an apology from Bush and when given, Korea wanted more more more. Korea asked for an apology from Japan and when given, it wanted more more more.
Maybe if Korea acted like this on this one particular issue I could better understand. But having a clear pattern of always asking for more more more with everything is a sort of personality disorder Korea has.
Nothing will ever cut it to Koreans. The diplomatic norm for the rest of the world isn’t enough. Korea is “special”. Even you know that Korea would not be satisfied with the 1995 resolution. They would still demand Japan not honor their war dead as they see fit. Who knows what else they would ask for after that but I’m sure they would think of more more more.
May 28th, 2005 at 2:09 am“smarlinghue: Why don’t you actually learn and read about what Japan did before you say they’ve ‘paid for it’. There really is not way to pay for the half century of atrocities they committed.”
What a condescending statement! Do you really think no one knows about what the Japanese did except Chinese and Koreans? What self-centered crap! Everyone knows what went on, including most Japanese. But only the Koreans and the Chinese want to keep using it as a weapon against Japan forever.
Funny how no South Koreans get upset with the Chinese, who have been far more brutal over the years than the Japanese, who are the reason the Korean Peninsula was divided to begin with, and the reason the Korean Peninsula remains divided to this day. The Chinese are willing accomplices to keeping the North Korean population in slavery today, under conditions just as bad, if not worse, than during the colonial period.
But not a peep out of you about that. And that’s happening TODAY, not when somebody’s great grandfather was a young man.
And where does this “half century” stuff come from? I count 35 years. And that ended 60 years ago.
May 28th, 2005 at 10:22 amWhat about the text of the petition that 4 million Japanese people signed?
May 28th, 2005 at 4:56 pmWhat a condescending statement! Do you really think no one knows about what the Japanese did except Chinese and Koreans? What self-centered crap! Everyone knows what went on, including most Japanese. But only the Koreans and the Chinese want to keep using it as a weapon against Japan forever.
Totally not true Smarlinghue. Actually most of other countries besides the ones that got tortured by Japanese don’t know about the astrocities done by japanese people during WWII and before. The western world know alot more about Jewish getting killed by Germans but hardly ever learn about millions more Chinese and Koreans getting killed and tortured by Japanese. So its usually Chinese and Koreans that have to let people know. Japan has been doing well masking their history.
May 29th, 2005 at 12:50 amdiamondback: I don’t have the text, only the context on why and what. It was started by Japan’s education minister in opposition to the proposed apology the Prime Minister’s party wanted the Diet to accept. The signatures were gathered and it was delivered to the Diet.
smarlinghue: 35 years? Again, learn your history. The ‘official’ annexation took place in 1910, but their interference started long before. Ever heard of the murder of Queen Min?
You own statements show your ignorance to the atrocities committed by Japan. John said as much though so I’ll leave it with agreeing with him.
May 29th, 2005 at 2:10 amSmarlinghue.
Definition of ignorance from Webster’s dictionary: “Without knowledge or education.”
Definition of ignorance from King Ko Ree U “Anyone who does not see things MY way.”
This guy has enough trouble just holding his big head up straight. Someday I hope he can come around to realizing that there is such a thing as different points of view. In the meantime he accepts the “Big Head’s Burden” of enlightening the ignorant masses which is a large number of people since it is everyone on earth that does not agree with him.
May 29th, 2005 at 4:07 amWow, how hilarious.
I would call folks that minimize Japan’s atrocities as ignorant. Same with holocaust deniers. Or those that think the comfort women system was just good ol prostitution. Same with those that think Japan has actually apologized as a nation. All ignorant of history and what has actually taken place.
But go ahead, keep fooling yourself, because yourself is the only one that is fooled.
May 29th, 2005 at 2:00 pmAK, this is not a issue of different point of you. You can argue all you want but the fact is, it was more than 35 years. I am watching the A&E history channel and they too were showing the brutality of Japanese (for the first time!!! finally). Japan obviously doesn’t do a good job in letting their own people know what kind of brutality they caused on to other nations. This is a lie, not a different point of you.
May 30th, 2005 at 8:53 amThat’s funny John. I have watched A&E history channel and have seen shows about Japan’s atrocities even as far back as 10 years ago.
“Japan has been doing well masking their history.”
I guess the Japanese men in black somehow didn’t notice the show in time to stop it. Someone will surely be fired or even killed for such a mistake.
The Japanese, at least a large majority (there are always some idiots), know a lot about the atrocities they committed before and during WWII and are much better informed about their history than China or Korea. What amazes me is how many Koreans and Chinese are so uninformed about Japan’s knowledge of Japan’s atrocities without ever reading a Japanese textbook or talking about the subject with a Japanese person.
King Ko Ree U
I would classify people who don’t accept the fact that Japan has apologized as
1) Sheep who follow the official government line because there is no other voice to challenge it. Basically uninformed (a nicer word than ignorant) about the subject because they get only one view.
2) Have a big hate on for Japan. Usually due to government propaganda.
I will take it that by not responding to my question you admit Korea would ask for more than the 1995 diet resolution from Japan.
So multiple prime ministers apologize for all of Japan and it is taken as a private apology.
Koiruzmi goes to the shrine as a private citizen and it is taken as a public event.
Something is very wrong with that logic.
Korea’s pattern of using warped logic to sustain its quest for victemhood and more more more is tiring. Why try?
Oh and in recent news a Korean newspaper has this headline over a recent dispute.
May 31st, 2005 at 3:25 am“Seoul rebuffs Tokyo apology as not enough”
Huh sounds very familiar. I think I see a pattern. More more more.
AK: I’ll answer this one.
There is more to an apology than just words. If Japan made an actual apology like King K mentioned, of course that wouldn’t be the end. Japan would then have to show through its actions that it was sincere. That would mean, among other things, NOT visiting Yasukuni.
No matter how you with to get around Yasukuni, you can’t. Citizens of Japan, at least currently, feel he shouldn’t go. The head of Toyota feels the Class A War Criminals should be removed from the lists of those honored there, it goes on.
Your mentioning of a headline is perfectly accurate. Japan wants to say a few words and be done with it. It needs to show remorse.
The COUNTRY, the NATION of Japan needs to apologize, a good way would be a unanimous or near unanimous vote of the Diet to apologize. That apology should be detailed. The schools should accurately and in detail teach what Japan did, like they do in Germany. As long as Class A War Criminals are honored at Yasukuni, it should be shunned. Those surviving former slave workers and ‘comfort women’ should receive direct compensation from a government fund. Not relatives, but those directly affected.
I’m just basically regurgitating an apology I read somewhere else, but it seemed like a good one, one that would cover everything and not leave room for nations to quibble and complain. If Japan would actually do something like this, it would END the problems with Korea and China as they would have no room to bitch and moan. The rest of the world would deride and condemn them if they tried.
May 31st, 2005 at 6:57 amSo now we can at least be honest in that Korea would ask for more more more than a sincere apology. Japan has apologized but Korea wants more. Korea wants action. I would say 60 years of being one of the world leaders in foreign aid, being a peaceful nation and working very well with the international community, and having signed compensation treaties with every country it committed atrocities against as enough. But let’s entertain this idea.
The problem with Korea demanding the Japanese, a sovereign nation, they cannot visit the Yasukuni shrine is that it interferes with a person’s liberty. Japan is a democracy and its citizens have certain human rights such as freedom of religion, the right to go where one pleases, etc. If you mean to take away forever Japan’s basic human rights to prove somehow that they are really sorry, you have some deep seeded issues.
How would Korea feel if Japan demanded Koreans could not visit their family graves?
The problem with Korea demanding the 12 class A war criminals be removed is that it is a private shrine. The government cannot interfere with private business. The business cannot break its contract with the family of the war criminals. Not to mention any religious beliefs of the families and culture about moving buried bodies. The only people with that power is the families of the war criminals. But in the end it is their right to have them buried where they see fit. It is a personal matter. I know little of any religious beliefs about this matter and they need to be taken into account. Korea needs to respect these families and Japan’s religious culture.
How would Korea feel if Japan demanded Koreans move their fathers’ grave?
Even if they were moved where would they be moved to? They are humans (barely) and need to be buried somewhere. Can people go to whatever grave site or shrine they eventually do get buried in without Korea getting upset? No.
Would Korea be satisfied with the removal of the 12 class A war criminals? No. They would want more more more and demand any soldiers of that era removed. Why kid ourselves into thinking this would take care of Korea’s insatiable lust for more more more?
Japan does accurately and in detail tell its students what they did during Japan’s colonial past. I know this isn’t what you here from Korea’s government but if you sit down and talk with some Japanese you would find out just how knowledgeable they are. Hint. Don’t meet a Japanese person on the street and start talking about such things right away. You need to actually have a Japanese friend. Which I doubt most of the Japanese haters posting here have or they would see how Japan really is.
The problem with giving money to comfort women is that it was already given. But the pattern of Korea wanting more more more is abundantly clear. The 1965 normalization treaty gave money to Korea for compensation. It is unfortunate the Korean government didn’t give any money to these women. People should be asking the Korean government for such compensation. The treaty also stated this would be the end of all compensation given to Korea and its citizens. No other claim will be recognized. Korea signed it. This shows perfectly Korea’s pattern of wanting more more more even after they agree to an agreement. Incredible.
This is proof that even if Japan took away Japanese citizens basic human rights along with everything else Korea would still want more more more.
“I’m just basically regurgitating an apology I read somewhere else, but it seemed like a good one, one that would cover everything and not leave room for nations to quibble and complain.”
I would love to see this apology you have read. Is it on the internet? If so could you give me a link?
May 31st, 2005 at 4:06 pmAK: you are trying to give equivilancy to things that are not there. Also, Korea would not be demanding more. You don’t seem to realize what an apology is. It isn’t just words. Anyone married understands that. You don’t just tell your wife you are sorry and that is the end of it. You have to make amends.
As far as Yasukuni goes, Yes, people can still go to the shrine. But if they are going to sincerely apologize, they shouldn’t go to it. It makes a lie of their apology.
Next, Yasukuni isn’t a grave site. You can certainly remove the names of the class A war criminals without any family permission. All that is necessary is that those that run the shrine decide to do it.
Next, the comfort women received no compensation. The compensation you discuss was broad based and it was specifically said it was NOT compensation. The Japanese government needs to take care of these women. There aren’t many of them, it certainly wouldn’t be a burden.
You are claiming things that weren’t asked. Nobody is asking rights be taken away.
I’ll try and find the apology that was written, it was well done.
June 1st, 2005 at 2:29 am“Also, Korea would not be demanding more.”
No one who pays any attention to Korean actions–North or South–believes for a minute that Korea would not demand more, and that includes everyone in Japan.
When was the last time North Korea did not demand more? Far from ending their demands, they increase them. Just like their brothers in the South.
The fisherman of South Korea and Japan had a deal about Takeshima, which the South Koreans flagrantly violate. That’s why Shimane got upset and declared Takeshima Day. But the South Koreans want more.
Here’s what the world knows about Korea–if it doesn’t get its way, it throws chairs into the boxing ring and turns out the lights.
It’s part of the national character to try to bully people to get what they want, and if that works, to step up the bullying to the next level. It’s blatant. All you have to do is look.
The way to deal with people like this is to tell them to buzz off.
June 1st, 2005 at 10:47 am“As far as Yasukuni goes, Yes, people can still go to the shrine. But if they are going to sincerely apologize, they shouldn’t go to it. It makes a lie of their apology.”
Huh????? They can still go but shouldn’t???
“Next, Yasukuni isn’t a grave site. You can certainly remove the names of the class A war criminals without any family permission. All that is necessary is that those that run the shrine decide to do it.”
Huh????? No remains are housed there?????? You are mistaken, remains are housed there.
The shrine and the families made a contract to house their remains there. The shrine would be breaking the law by breaking such a contract.
I wouldn’t be against asking the families to let the shrine out of the contract and move them, but it is a decision to be made by the families. But we all know Korea would then ask for more more more and ask for ALL Japanese soldiers of that time period to be removed. Also, their remains must go to some shrine where others are buried. How could their families and the families of the other people whose remains are housed at the shrine be able to go and pay respects to family members without Korea demanding people not go there?
“ Next, the comfort women received no compensation. The compensation you discuss was broad based and it was specifically said it was NOT compensation. The Japanese government needs to take care of these women. There aren’t many of them, it certainly wouldn’t be a burden.”
You are right it was not labeled as “compensation”. But it clearly states that Korea and its citizens agree not to ask for any more money from Japan . “have been settled completely and finally.” Seems pretty clear to me. Guess what? Korea is asking for more more more. See a pattern?
“You are claiming things that weren’t asked. Nobody is asking rights be taken away.”
But that is exactly what Korea is demanding. Not being able to honor ones ancestors by not being able to go to a public place is taking away liberties.
There is no appeasing the unappeasable.
June 2nd, 2005 at 1:19 amTelling Korea to “buzz off” like China always handles Korea is the only thing Japan can do. Hey Korea never complaims when China tells Korea to Buzz off.