In direct opposition to 8, yes 8 former PMs who have come out and said they should stop visiting the shrines.

As far as it being a temporary calm, of course it would be. Why would anyone think otherwise. China and Korea would consider it a step in the process, not the entire process itself.

This is one of the worst editorials I have ever read. What a moron. He completely misstates what the problem is. The problem isn’t Yasukuni alone. It is only one piece of a much larger problem that Japan has.

This article deserves to be thoroughly fisked, it certainly deserves only derision. Praising it is laughable.

Yasukuni is PART of the problem already. It isn’t the ENTIRE problem.

But hey, 8 former prime ministers, they chairman of Toyota Motors, a former prime minister that visited the shrine and others must all be wrong… whatever…

I sometimes wonder if the United Nations (as the Allies were in fact called back then) hadn’t dropped the bomb not once but twice on Japan (and it wasn’t just the Americans who were involved, as the uranium for the bombs in fact came from Canada) we might not be in this mess today with Japan playing the victim all the time. But you know, if they can put Hiroshima into middle-school English textbooks (talk about a lousy lesson for English conversation class) perhaps they might be sure to mention the Imperial Army’s exploits in East Asia.

That’s not to say a bunch of stone-throwing hooligans and communist party hacks should be calling the shots, and demanding for Japan’s forgiveness.

One step in the process – give me a break. This is all about those undersea gas reserves, isn’t it?

“He says Japan should refuse to budge an inch without promises from China to eliminate the anti-Japan tone of Chinese history textbooks.”

Too fxxxin right! Who do those Chinese think they are?! Communist bastards!

I sometimes wonder if the United Nations (as the Allies were in fact called back then) hadn’t dropped the bomb not once but twice on Japan (and it wasn’t just the Americans who were involved, as the uranium for the bombs in fact came from Canada) we might not be in this mess today with Japan playing the victim all the time. But you know, if they can put Hiroshima into middle-school English textbooks (talk about a lousy lesson for English conversation class) perhaps they might be sure to mention the Imperial Army’s exploits in East Asia.

If the bombs hadn’t been dropped you would have had millions more dead.

Japanese playing the victim because they were subjected to the atom bomb is the height of hypocrisy.

I agree with King Ko-ree-u on one thing. China and Japan would demand more more more than just an apology. More more more than visits to Yasukuni. It is nice we can finally agree on this.

I also agree with ghoti. China and Korea are doing a VERY poor job of communicating their demands to Japan.

Most Japanese believe that if their Prime Ministers stopped going to the Yasukuni shrine, the whole problem would be over or at least substantially calmed down. Simply not true.

Even the controversial Japanese textbook is far better and more accurate than Chinese textbooks, North Korean textbooks, and even the democratic South Korean textbooks. They got a lot of nerve asking for something they do far worse at than Japan. If this is done it must be with assurances those 3 countries would do a better job with their own textbooks. Let’s throw North Korea out, they are just crazy. There is a lot of improvement for China and South Korea to improve upon and need to show they can do more than throw stones. If they truly want good relations they also need to take steps in the right direction. This is not a one way street that Japan gives and gives and gives. It is time they realize that.

Very few Japanese actually think Korea wants to break the 1965 normalization treaty in order for Japan to compensate comfort women again even though South Korea didn’t give any of the money to the comfort women once Japan paid South Korea.

Is there some list those governments have made to communicate their demands to Japan? No. Why make something concrete that would make it harder to demand more later after the list is abided by Japan? Not that it would stop them from asking for more. Just look at the compensation for comfort women demand.

Few Japanese think China and Korea would demand more more more after even all of this. Most are naive in thinking that. But the truth of the matter is they would demand even more after all of this.

Give an inch, take a mile.

King Ko -ree-u

“Ummm…Korea wasn’t responsible for a brutal regime that raped, pillaged and murdered its way across Asia destroying and killing the lives of 10s of millions. Don’t give me this shit about Japanese textbooks being ‘accurate.’”

True Japan did far worse. I was not comparing the wrongs of Japan to the wrongs of Korea. Interesting that you took it that way though. Don’t worry I would never dream of taking away Korea’s badge of victim hood that helps to define their national identity.

My point was Korea also has some glaringly inaccurate history books and history curriculum. The point of both sides is to have accurate history in order to have a society that does not start wars and is not rampant with nationalism and Anti this or that sentiment that is the prelude to many wars. It is to create a good relationship were such things don’t happen. Right now anti Japanese and American sentiment is running amuck in Korea. Japan’s textbooks and curriculum are far superior to that of Korea and you can see it in the citizenry. Shouldn’t Korea try to work on their history curriculum and anti Japanese curriculum? This relationship is not a one way street.

“It is up to Japan, the aggressor nation, the murdering horde, to finally own up to its past and take the first, second and third steps. Korea was a victim, you don’t make the victim pay for the crime.”

“Murdering horde”- nice
I didn’t know having to strive for accurate textbooks was paying for a crime. I thought it was the goal of every responsible society. Interesting perspective though. Maybe that is why Korea’s textbooks are so terrible. To make them accurate would be seen as a punishment of sort.

Case in point. Currently Korean education and media report that Japan doesn’t know its history or the atrocities it committed. This is inaccurate and is creating anti-Japanese sentiment based on a lie. Most people who have lived in Japan or have Japanese friends know just how well Japanese know the atrocities they committed. One of my friends told me one lesson on Japanese atrocities was so terrible and graphic almost everyone in the class was crying. But the Korean school system and media would have their people believe the Japanese have never taught these atrocities. Nothing could be further from the truth and this makes the case on how wildly inaccurate Korean and Chinese education and media are and the need for reform in those countries.

“Sweet, blame a few little old ladies that were raped 50-70 times a day. Way to go. Did you push your grandma down the stairs for insurance money?”

I never blamed the poor women. I did blame the Korean government for not compensating them in 1965 after Japan gave a HUGE sum of cash to Korea and then are asking for more money later even though Japan had already paid them. I think your emotion is getting in the way of your logic with this one.

I also blame the Korean agents that sold many of these ladies into the terrible life. But I bet there is no mention of Koreans selling women to the Japanese army in any school textbook in Korea. Now before you get all emotional it is obvious the Japanese deserve the lion share of blame for these poor women. My point is the Korean role in it is not covered in Korean textbooks along with many other inaccuracies of history in the curriculum that need to be changed if these two countries will ever have a good relationship. A relationship is not a one way street.

“Of course, China and Korea need to make a concrete list.”

It has been 60 years. If Korea and China are so focused on the Japan of 60 years ago let them make a list. It is 60 years in the coming. But they will never do so because that would mean it would be harder to ask for more more more. While Korea is at it they could make a list of demands from China for their atrocities in Korea. Oh that is right China doesn’t even respect Korea enough to even discuss such things unlike Japan. And Korea pays China back by demanding nothing from them. Japan can learn from this. Trying to be accommodated and appease is getting nowhere. Japan should act like China and tell Korea to buzz off and Korea would never demand a thing again.

Ghoti. The reason there is such a hatred over Japan from alot of Asian countries is because Japan never really owned up to their war crimes like the Germans did. First of all, it wasn’t all Japan’s fault. Americans should have pushed for Hirohito to be executed for this to have been settled. And Japan got off much easier than the Germans did even though what Japan did is far more worse than what the German did. This on top of idiotic honoring of WWII war criminals just makes it worse. If Japan has any decency as a human being, they should know that honoring war criminals would pour oil into fire that is already burning.

Korea was not a victom. Korea fought on the side of Japan. When the US came to korea after the war was over, the US generals at first treated the Koreans the same as the japanese.

The Koreans like to claim that they were all kidnapped and made to fight for the japanese, but dont forget guys like Hong ik sa. the Korean general in charge of POW camps in asia. (note that he didnt take a japanese name and was a GENERAL) He was hung as a war criminal. Koreas faught with the japanese not against them.

And Japan got off much easier than the Germans did even though what Japan did is far more worse than what the German did.

And what leads you to believe this? I am no historian, but I don’t believe that for a second. Japan is not the one that’s guilty of attempting genocide, and I’m willing to bet they probably didn’t kill as many people. I could be wrong, but so could you, unless you show me some sources, and also back up your claim that what Japan did during WWII was “far more worse” than the Germans.

The reason there is such a hatred over Japan from alot of Asian countries is because Japan never really owned up to their war crimes like the Germans did.

China, North and South Korea are the only countries in Asia that still criticizes what Japan did in wartime. Those three think they can demand more apologies and compensation by bringing up this issue. On the other hand, the former Prime Minister of Taiwan and the President of Indonesia support Koizumi’s decision to visit Yasukuni.

When the Japanese go to Yasukuni shrine they go there to honor the men that gave their lives to Japan in various wars or to honor ancestors that lost their lives in war. They do not go there to honor war criminals. This is another example how Korea’s and China’s history curriculum and media have failed them. I can understand how a totalitarian regime such as China can feed their citizens such lies that the Japanese go to the shrine to honor the 12 class A war criminals. They are use to following the state run media and their curriculum allows for no dissenting thoughts or critical thinking skills. What excuse does democratic South Korea have? They are a democracy that should be critical thinkers even with an anti Japanese curriculum and media.

I’m sorry, but having 13 Class A War Criminals deified at Yasukuni should make it off limits to any citizen with a sense of decency. Whether you are going there to pay your respects to them or not, the perception is still there.

“China, North and South Korea are the only countries in Asia that still criticizes what Japan did in wartime”

NS-5. Its because these countries were effected the most by the Japanese occupation. Taiwanese are siding with Japanese for political reason (i.e. against mainland China). From my knowledge human experimentation, and other maddening tortures were significantly concentrated in China and Korea.

Ray, you obviously don’t have good historical background. Japan killed more Chinese and Korean through their human experimentation and other tortures than Germans did to Jewish. You can even watch this on the History channel in US, although it doesn’t air as often.

I was waiting for you to correct me, but I asked for sources.
And let’s not forget the Germans didn’t only kill a bunch of Jews…

Japan wasn’t set on trying to exterminate an entire race (or nation or ethnic group), which if I’m not wrong, is still the definition of genocide, so I stand by what I said. Yes, I know they killed a bunch people and did plenty of bad things that ended more than half a century ago… but let’s not exaggerate here.

“I’m sorry, but having 13 Class A War Criminals deified at Yasukuni should make it off limits to any citizen with a sense of decency. Whether you are going there to pay your respects to them or not, the perception is still there.”

The perception is only in the heads of the Chinese and Koreans. Isn’t reality the important thing? In reality people go their to honor the war dead or ancestors. So no citizens should go there. You have a lot of nerve. People have the right to go there to honor the war dead and you want to take away that right. People have the right to visit and honor their ancestors who are there. You want to take away their right to do that. It is absolutely ignorant for one to ask for a person of another country not to have the right to honor their war dead.

Joeschmoe proves in his ramblings that he has no desire for forgiveness. He is only interested in as ghotti stated “incrimination not forgiveness”. Sadly most Chinese and Koreans are like this because of their anti Japanese curriculum and media. Why try to seek forgiveness when most of their citizenry isn’t really interested in it?

“Ray, you obviously don’t have good historical background. Japan killed more Chinese and Korean through their human experimentation and other tortures than Germans did to Jewish. You can even watch this on the History channel in US, although it doesn’t air as often.”

Wow another history channel episode about the cruelty of Japan’s atrocities. They are springing up everywhere these days. And I thought the Japanese Men In Black stopped outsiders from knowing the “real” history. Except China and Korea of course with their well known accurate history textbooks -ha ha ha.

First comparing the atrocities of Germany and Japan is pretty silly. I mean both were horrifically bad. I see no point of comparing such things unless one really loves to show off that badge of victim hood for all to see. If you like I will give you something to shine that badge of victim hood right up so it will shine for all to see. I know Koreans are very proud of it and helps to define their Korean identity.

All Jews that were found by the Germans were moved into concentration camps. The lucky ones died quickly. Most died a slow tortuous death in these camps.

Koreans were thought of as 2nd class citizens. A vast majority of Koreans were left to live their lives pretty much the way they always had. Most were able to keep and stay on their land. Most had a job and got paid. Most were able to send their children to school and universities that the Japanese built for them. If they got hurt they could go see a doctor in a hospital that was probably built by the Japanese. Yes they did have some experiments in Korean on a MUCH smaller scale that were usually reserved for “criminals”. Yes I realize what happened to the Koreans was a terrible thing. But to compare it to the 6 million Jews that died and the millions of others that survived those camps is a joke. If your history textbooks tell you Koreans were worse off than the Jews we have identified another inaccuracy in Korean textbooks.

Hiro Hito wasn’t executed to avoid allienating the populace. Japan wasn’t Iraq, they had to make it their friend, not rule it for decades.

And why don’t Philippines, Indonesians or Malasians shout every day? Because they don’t live on propaganda. They prefer economic ties with Japan rather than fooling their people in projecting their frustrations to the ‘enemy’.
China’s problem is the problem of its dictatorship, but South Korea’s attitute is just laughable.

yago, those countries you mentioned were not as heavily effected as Korea and China.

By the way, estimated total civilian casualty of Korean, Chinese, etc were about 15 to 24 million. depending on the source. I would say that is far more than Jewish casualty.

Here are some list of Atrocities
Nanjing Massacre
March 1st Movement
Sook Ching Massacre
Last Empress of Korea
Bataan Death March
Manila Massacre
Unit 731
Unit 516
Unit 100
Death Railway

If you can say that you learned about all this from your Japanese text then I can tell you that your text book isn’t that bad.

I live in the US and I found alot of information about this through research for a school project. And yes alot of text do give some comparisons between the Germans and Japanese both qualitative and quantitative.

If you think that still think that you cannot compare German’s genocide to what Japanese have done, then I don’t know what else to tell you. Because Obviously Japanese education on this issue is extremely lacking for a Japanese to believe that Germans were worse than Japan. Both the quality and the quantity of ihumane activities heavily favor Japan in my opinion.

John

“And obviously Japanese are taught that they treated all Koreans and Chinese well while they occupied it and spread their great knowledge.”

Not true. In my previous post I wrote “Yes I realize what happened to the Koreans was a terrible thing.” I was simply trying to show that many Koreans had the choice to live their lives in a humane way while under Japanese control while no Jews had that choice under German control. That is why 6 million Jews died, something like 25% of their total population. Korea’s population actually increased under the Japanese occupation. I do realize the atrocities committed by Japan. I do realize that while many Koreans did live in a humane way, they still had their freedom taken away. I do realize that those who resisted usually paid for it with their life. But at least they had a choice to survive if they so chose.

I put the word “criminals” in quotations”" just for the reason you described. “criminals”were either real criminals or people that were working against the Japanese.

“And I guess Japan never hurt anyone as bad as Germans did right.”

I was comparing the Korean experience with the Jewish experience. Considering the Jewish population substantially diminished while the Korea population increased shows how both were treated. If you wanted to compare ALL Japanese atrocities to All German atrocities we both need to bring out some pretty long lists. The Germans did commit other atrocities to other peoples you know. Just like Japan committed other atrocities than just Koreans as you pointed out. For example, the gypsies are often overlooked even though 6 million of them died brutally at the hands of the Germans.

“I guess Nanking Massacre was nothing to Japanese. Or Japan would like to totally deny it.”

The massacre is important, that is why it is in every textbook. The Japanese, at least a large majority do think it was a big deal and own up to it.

“Korea still finds metal spikes in mountains that the Japanese have planted to “cut the flow of energy in the nation”. These findings remind them of the brutality everyday.”

I don’t mean to be rude and would like to bring this up in the nicest possible way but the metal spikes found in the ground are geographical survey markers. These markers are used in industrialized advanced societies for geographical purposes and are used in Korea now. The problem was the not very advanced Korea of 90 years ago didn’t know this modern survey method and thought it was some type of way the Japanese would stop Korean natural energy because they had no sense of modern geographical techniques and that myth made sense to a society that wasn’t very advanced at the time. Obviously this myth has continued to this day in Korea. If you think about it, it would be pretty silly of the Japanese to go around the mountains planting spikes to stop Korean energy. They had already easily taken and occupied Korea. They were just using modern techniques to geographically survey what they thought was “their” new land. Even if this planting spikes to stop Korean energy was true I would not categorize it as “brutal”

“All I am saying is that you never see US commemorate dropping of atomic bomb even though it helped US cut down on its death toll.”

The U.S. does do this every year. They do commemorate the event. Some look at it as a good thing while others a tragedy. Every year it is brought up in the news and reflected upon.

I think what we have an impass about is Koreans and Chinese think the Japanese go to the shrine to honor the 12 class A war criminals while the Japanese really go there to honor the other soldiers that gave their lives in war. If I was Korean or Chinese and thought the Japanese went there to honor the class A war criminals I would be upset too. But they don’t, they go there simply to honor the war dead.

Thanks for the links, John. I will say it doesn’t get anymore biased than this one, though – http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html#compare

No doubt that Germany has compensated its victims and pretty much bent over ass-backwards for them more than Japan has. I never denied that. You can compare what Japan and Germany did during WWII, being the two major Axis powers, but I argued that Germany had a much bigger and evil agenda than Japan and probably succeeded more. There are a few discrepancies I could point out from that link, but it wouldn’t matter if I did anyway.

BTW, I am not and will never deny the things Japan has done up to 1945. I’ve seen enough photos, read enough essays etc. to realize the brutal nature of what happened as much as anyone else who wasn’t alive at the time (like most of the people that get bent out of shape about this). Okay, maybe not, since I don’t have any relatives that could tell me about it first-hand. Though I am Palestinian-American, and if you knew anything about the history in that region, I don’t really need to explain what both sides of my family have endured during (and after) the rise of Israel. Luckily my relatives reside in Israeli territory and not in Gaza or the West Bank, where oppression still exists today by the occupation of Israeli forces. Of course, I’m not going to compare this to what happened in Asia before and during WWII because it’s nowhere near as massive, but my point is that if issue was resolved half a century ago, then my opinion (about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict) would be a hell of a lot different. (I’ll refrain from talking more about this for the sake of staying on subject).

What happened has happened. What matters it how it should be handled today. I think Japan is somewhat stubborn about the issue, but after seeing what happened during the violent and massive anti-Japanese protests in China, I can’t really blame their stance now. Don’t get me started on China, because she is no angel, and has not been since the PRC has been in power. Some of the things that premier Wen Jiabao has recently publicly stated is laughable, and may as well have been talking about his own country today, except he’s actually slamming another country that has had a pretty clean record for the past SIXTY YEARS. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Japan is not the same Japan since 1945. While I do think that they should make better efforts to compensate or deal with the neighboring countries that constantly remind them of their past for the sake of keeping relations to a relatively good level, the hate mongering and double standards are unnecessary. Straining current relations over this issue isn’t worth it, seeing as what Japan is today…but that means nothing to many of you. The textbook deal has been argued to death…it seems many editions are almost self-masochistic, according to people that actually live in Japan and actually know something about the textbooks, besides the .01% (or whatever the number is, who knows) of schools that use the new and revised editions.

I just wanted to get this off my chest, finally.

By the way, estimated total civilian casualty of Korean, Chinese, etc were about 15 to 24 million. depending on the source. I would say that is far more than Jewish casualty.

The Jewish casualty, like I said earlier, is not the only casualty from the Germans. It is one of many. And when you say 15 to 24 million, do you mean JUST Korea and China, or the rest of the things you listed below? I’m a bit skeptical about those numbers. You still have not listed a source for this number of casualties.

The casualty numbers I provided is just a conservative estimate. The numbers range anywhere from mere couple million that Japan figures to about 35 million claimed by Chinese and some documents. I know that Japan tends to underestimate and China tends to overestimate. So I just took a median range of the number. It is probably not the most accurate number I admit because it is really hard to accurate get a body count. Also the number is not just Koreans and Chinese. I think I did write etc on their to mention other countries. But since the basis of topic here concerned Koreans and Chinese here I left it all clumped into etc. Sorry if I was misleading.

I don’t believe “honor” is the right words to describe the activities of Shinto. Probably that is a translation of “matsuru”. That word partly means to respect, but this word contains the meaning of “to be afraid”. The Japanese visit shrines not to honor somebody, but to calm Kami (souls) and wish to protect them. Otherwise the Kami might bring disaster.

To be precise, Kami is not a soul. It is their belief that everything has Kami in it, even a rock, river, tree etc. Any Kami, even from something evil, is a divine, elevated entity. Also the Kami of a human is free of what they did in his life. Kami is often interpreted as God or gods, but that is not correct.

In the case of Yasukuni, their Kami would bring war if people stopped visiting there. In the shrine, there is not a remain of war dead, but is a list of over two million names of the war dead, which include the war criminals’. Yasukuni believes that the souls of the all war dead make one Kami. They say that just as a flame cannot be split into two, their Kami cannot be divided. It is their religious belief, not their stubbornness.

Shinto is an unique religion in Japan, and that complicates this issue. This link might help:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

Robert Taft strongly opposed the Nuremberg Trials of the Nazis. Presumably, he would have objected also to the IMTFE proceedings. Later, Justice Wm. Douglas concurred. The problem with the tribunals, of course, is that they applied ex posto facto laws against the defendants. The provision against ex post facto is an important part of any rational system of justice. And exactly what is a “crime against peace,” anyhow? Might not that infraction include playing your car stereo too loud?