The shrine is a private shrine and the Japanese government and public have no way to make a private business (the shrine) or the families of the class A war criminals to agree to be move the class A war criminals. I’m all for private interests groups to try to work out the issue. But there are laws against the government deciding who can go into what private shrine.

I wish I could believe China and Korea wouldn’t have a problem with Japan if the 12 class A war criminals were removed. Considering it wasn’t an issue for 30 years until 1985 makes me suspicious. The class B war criminals are not an issue now, just like the class A war criminals were not an issue 25 years ago. But I truly believe there would be an issue with the class B war criminals if the class A war criminals were ever removed. Sadly new issue after new issue will come up no matter what Japan does.

Frankly I am getting very tired of this issue. If China and Korea can’t accept Japan’s dozens of sincere apologies by heads of state. And can’t accept the action of being a peaceful helpful nation in the world community for 60 years, I don’t know what Japan could say or do to change anything in those two countries perceptions of Japan. It is up to Korea and China to either accept or deny Japan forgiveness and to build a future together.

To be precise, Kami is not a soul. It is their belief that everything has Kami in it, even a rock, river, tree etc. Any Kami, even from something evil, is a divine, elevated entity. Also the Kami of a human is free of what they did in his life. Kami is often interpreted as God or gods, but that is not correct.

In the case of Yasukuni, their Kami would bring war if people stopped visiting there. In the shrine, there is not a remain of war dead, but is a list of over two million names of the war dead, which include the war criminals’. Yasukuni believes that the souls of the all war dead make one Kami. They say that just as a flame cannot be split into two, their Kami cannot be divided. It is their religious belief, not their stubbornness.

Shinto is an unique religion in Japan, and that complicates this issue. This link might help:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

Those seeking best online doc on Nanking atrocities go here
http://www.geocities.com/nankingatrocities/

No doubt that Germany has compensated its victims and pretty much bent over ass-backwards for them more than Japan has. I never denied that. You can compare what Japan and Germany did during WWII, being the two major Axis powers, but I argued that Germany had a much bigger and evil agenda than Japan and probably succeeded more. There are a few discrepancies I could point out from that link, but it wouldn’t matter if I did anyway.

BTW, I am not and will never deny the things Japan has done up to 1945. I’ve seen enough photos, read enough essays etc. to realize the brutal nature of what happened as much as anyone else who wasn’t alive at the time (like most of the people that get bent out of shape about this). Okay, maybe not, since I don’t have any relatives that could tell me about it first-hand. Though I am Palestinian-American, and if you knew anything about the history in that region, I don’t really need to explain what both sides of my family have endured during (and after) the rise of Israel. Luckily my relatives reside in Israeli territory and not in Gaza or the West Bank, where oppression still exists today by the occupation of Israeli forces. Of course, I’m not going to compare this to what happened in Asia before and during WWII because it’s nowhere near as massive, but my point is that if issue was resolved half a century ago, then my opinion (about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict) would be a hell of a lot different. (I’ll refrain from talking more about this for the sake of staying on subject).

What happened has happened. What matters it how it should be handled today. I think Japan is somewhat stubborn about the issue, but after seeing what happened during the violent and massive anti-Japanese protests in China, I can’t really blame their stance now. Don’t get me started on China, because she is no angel, and has not been since the PRC has been in power. Some of the things that premier Wen Jiabao has recently publicly stated is laughable, and may as well have been talking about his own country today, except he’s actually slamming another country that has had a pretty clean record for the past SIXTY YEARS. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Japan is not the same Japan since 1945. While I do think that they should make better efforts to compensate or deal with the neighboring countries that constantly remind them of their past for the sake of keeping relations to a relatively good level, the hate mongering and double standards are unnecessary. Straining current relations over this issue isn’t worth it, seeing as what Japan is today…but that means nothing to many of you. The textbook deal has been argued to death…it seems many editions are almost self-masochistic, according to people that actually live in Japan and actually know something about the textbooks, besides the .01% (or whatever the number is, who knows) of schools that use the new and revised editions.

I just wanted to get this off my chest, finally.

By the way, estimated total civilian casualty of Korean, Chinese, etc were about 15 to 24 million. depending on the source. I would say that is far more than Jewish casualty.

The Jewish casualty, like I said earlier, is not the only casualty from the Germans. It is one of many. And when you say 15 to 24 million, do you mean JUST Korea and China, or the rest of the things you listed below? I’m a bit skeptical about those numbers. You still have not listed a source for this number of casualties.

Take Nanking Massacre for example. The number of casualties you cited, 300,000, is claimed by the Chinese government. But recent studies show this number is overly exaggerated. The population of Nanking was only 200,000, according to The Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone, written by the International Committee of the Nanking Safety Zone. Do the math. Killing 300,000 was impossible. Furthermore, an INCREASE of the population to 250,000 was recorded two month later. Why did so many people go to the city where such a massacre took place? I could give you more examples that cast doubt on the matter, but I guess here is not the place to discuss that.

Be careful with photos. Here is a link where you can find a lot of propaganda photographs:
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/fujioka/index.html
I live in the US too, and often find those propaganda pictures. Why is that? Because the Chinese government then was engaged in anti-Japanese propaganda activities that involved the US. An official document by China was found two years ago that orders to send gruesome pictures to Chicago Daily News and New York Times, even if some of them were fake!

I am NOT trying to deny Nanking Massacre or Japan’s wartime atrocities. I am just providing a different view.

“And obviously Japanese are taught that they treated all Koreans and Chinese well while they occupied it and spread their great knowledge.”

Not true. In my previous post I wrote “Yes I realize what happened to the Koreans was a terrible thing.” I was simply trying to show that many Koreans had the choice to live their lives in a humane way while under Japanese control while no Jews had that choice under German control. That is why 6 million Jews died, something like 25% of their total population. Korea’s population actually increased under the Japanese occupation. I do realize the atrocities committed by Japan. I do realize that while many Koreans did live in a humane way, they still had their freedom taken away. I do realize that those who resisted usually paid for it with their life. But at least they had a choice to survive if they so chose.

I put the word “criminals” in quotations”" just for the reason you described. “criminals”were either real criminals or people that were working against the Japanese.

“And I guess Japan never hurt anyone as bad as Germans did right.”

I was comparing the Korean experience with the Jewish experience. Considering the Jewish population substantially diminished while the Korea population increased shows how both were treated. If you wanted to compare ALL Japanese atrocities to All German atrocities we both need to bring out some pretty long lists. The Germans did commit other atrocities to other peoples you know. Just like Japan committed other atrocities than just Koreans as you pointed out. For example, the gypsies are often overlooked even though 6 million of them died brutally at the hands of the Germans.

“I guess Nanking Massacre was nothing to Japanese. Or Japan would like to totally deny it.”

The massacre is important, that is why it is in every textbook. The Japanese, at least a large majority do think it was a big deal and own up to it.

“Korea still finds metal spikes in mountains that the Japanese have planted to “cut the flow of energy in the nation”. These findings remind them of the brutality everyday.”

I don’t mean to be rude and would like to bring this up in the nicest possible way but the metal spikes found in the ground are geographical survey markers. These markers are used in industrialized advanced societies for geographical purposes and are used in Korea now. The problem was the not very advanced Korea of 90 years ago didn’t know this modern survey method and thought it was some type of way the Japanese would stop Korean natural energy because they had no sense of modern geographical techniques and that myth made sense to a society that wasn’t very advanced at the time. Obviously this myth has continued to this day in Korea. If you think about it, it would be pretty silly of the Japanese to go around the mountains planting spikes to stop Korean energy. They had already easily taken and occupied Korea. They were just using modern techniques to geographically survey what they thought was “their” new land. Even if this planting spikes to stop Korean energy was true I would not categorize it as “brutal”

“All I am saying is that you never see US commemorate dropping of atomic bomb even though it helped US cut down on its death toll.”

The U.S. does do this every year. They do commemorate the event. Some look at it as a good thing while others a tragedy. Every year it is brought up in the news and reflected upon.

I think what we have an impass about is Koreans and Chinese think the Japanese go to the shrine to honor the 12 class A war criminals while the Japanese really go there to honor the other soldiers that gave their lives in war. If I was Korean or Chinese and thought the Japanese went there to honor the class A war criminals I would be upset too. But they don’t, they go there simply to honor the war dead.

Here are some list of Atrocities
Nanjing Massacre
March 1st Movement
Sook Ching Massacre
Last Empress of Korea
Bataan Death March
Manila Massacre
Unit 731
Unit 516
Unit 100
Death Railway

If you can say that you learned about all this from your Japanese text then I can tell you that your text book isn’t that bad.

I live in the US and I found alot of information about this through research for a school project. And yes alot of text do give some comparisons between the Germans and Japanese both qualitative and quantitative.

Honoring war criminals is their right like you said. I know that. But it still ticks people off. How would Japanese feel if US glorified dropping atomic bomb in Japan by celebrating that day to commemorate every yeaer? I am sure people would be ticked off. Well its much worse than that. 38 years of occupation for Korea where they were treated inhumantely and many massacres for both Chinese and Koreans. Korea still finds metal spikes in mountains that the Japanese have planted to “cut the flow of energy in the nation”. These findings remind them of the brutality everyday.

And why don’t Philippines, Indonesians or Malasians shout every day? Because they don’t live on propaganda. They prefer economic ties with Japan rather than fooling their people in projecting their frustrations to the ‘enemy’.
China’s problem is the problem of its dictatorship, but South Korea’s attitute is just laughable.

It is Korea’s desire to keep the hostilities going that make them a threat to Asia. Spend a night out in Seoul, then a night out in Tokyo, and you may understand.

The perception is only in the heads of the Chinese and Koreans. Isn’t reality the important thing? In reality people go their to honor the war dead or ancestors. So no citizens should go there. You have a lot of nerve. People have the right to go there to honor the war dead and you want to take away that right. People have the right to visit and honor their ancestors who are there. You want to take away their right to do that. It is absolutely ignorant for one to ask for a person of another country not to have the right to honor their war dead.

Joeschmoe proves in his ramblings that he has no desire for forgiveness. He is only interested in as ghotti stated “incrimination not forgiveness”. Sadly most Chinese and Koreans are like this because of their anti Japanese curriculum and media. Why try to seek forgiveness when most of their citizenry isn’t really interested in it?

“Ray, you obviously don’t have good historical background. Japan killed more Chinese and Korean through their human experimentation and other tortures than Germans did to Jewish. You can even watch this on the History channel in US, although it doesn’t air as often.”

Wow another history channel episode about the cruelty of Japan’s atrocities. They are springing up everywhere these days. And I thought the Japanese Men In Black stopped outsiders from knowing the “real” history. Except China and Korea of course with their well known accurate history textbooks -ha ha ha.

First comparing the atrocities of Germany and Japan is pretty silly. I mean both were horrifically bad. I see no point of comparing such things unless one really loves to show off that badge of victim hood for all to see. If you like I will give you something to shine that badge of victim hood right up so it will shine for all to see. I know Koreans are very proud of it and helps to define their Korean identity.

All Jews that were found by the Germans were moved into concentration camps. The lucky ones died quickly. Most died a slow tortuous death in these camps.

Koreans were thought of as 2nd class citizens. A vast majority of Koreans were left to live their lives pretty much the way they always had. Most were able to keep and stay on their land. Most had a job and got paid. Most were able to send their children to school and universities that the Japanese built for them. If they got hurt they could go see a doctor in a hospital that was probably built by the Japanese. Yes they did have some experiments in Korean on a MUCH smaller scale that were usually reserved for “criminals”. Yes I realize what happened to the Koreans was a terrible thing. But to compare it to the 6 million Jews that died and the millions of others that survived those camps is a joke. If your history textbooks tell you Koreans were worse off than the Jews we have identified another inaccuracy in Korean textbooks.

JoeSchmoe, I was talking about criticisms from government officials, not POW organizations. Or, do you know any other country other than those three that still brings up Japan’s wartime activities?

I’m sorry, but having 13 Class A War Criminals deified at Yasukuni should make it off limits to any citizen with a sense of decency. Whether you are going there to pay your respects to them or not, the perception is still there.

People who visited Yasukuni include Dalai Lama, the king of Thailand, Tonga, the premiers of Lithuania, Myanmar, and many government officials from dozens of countries. All of them happened after Yasukuni enshrined the class A war criminals. Do you think they lack a sense of decency?