Thanks, RYO, for your note. Japanese language newspapers like the Yomiuri will use Katakana or Hiragana for foreigner names, but Chinese and Taiwanese do not have any kind of hiragana/katakana syllabies. Just the hanzu/kanji. So they write the names correctly, they just read them incorrectly. It’s no big deal, but I do feel that people in Taiwan or China should know the real names of the Japanese people they read or hear about on TV. It’s an easy thing to fix, but the top editors at major newspapers have to agree with this and institute a new style guide for Japanese names. If newspaper writes about me in Taiwan, they print my name in Mandarin first, followed by, in parentheses, my English short name:
丹布隆 (Dan Bloom). But Japanese people don’t get no respect in Chinese-speaking countries….:grin:

LOL
What about the Japanese pronouciation the name of Father of China, Sun Zhongsan (Sun Yat-sen) as Sun Nakayama? The Japanese didn’t even bother transliterate Sun Zhongsan as Sun Chusan but instead used the traditional Japanase of Nakayama which is also based on the same Kanji.

Why not Chusan but Nakayama? Anyone?

When two different languages share a similar writing system expect native speakers to fall back on the pronunciations they know best.

Yes, this is true, and it is all to be expected. And there’s nothing really wrong with this practice, of falling back on the the pronounciations people know best.

But it’s wrong. And the job of newspaper and magazine editors is to correct wrongs. SMILE.

So how to do it? The best I can come up with now, if I was editor of a major Chinese-language newspaper or program director of a major TV network in China or Taiwan, would be to print the Japanese name first in kanji/hanzu followed by the name printed or spoken correctly in roman letters. It’s easy and it does not take up much space or time. They already do this for Western names, from Madonna to Britney Spears (mo, sorry, Britney Spears is called “SHIOA TIEN TIEN BU RI TOO NEE in Chinese, for “Little Candy Britney” (don’t ask why! okay, ask why!), etc.

I didn’t know about Sun Yat-sen getting misprounced in Japan. OOPS. Bad boys! Call him by his proper name, puhlease!

By the way, since we’re on this topic. Taiwanese do have their quirks with some famous Western names, like Britney Spears, above, they call her Shiao Tien Tien Britney, after the manga character Candy from Japan. I guess they think she looks like that Candy girl.

MORE:

Frank Sinatra is not called Frank Sinatra in Taiwan. He is called LITTLE THIN MONKEY in Mandarin, SHIAO SO PEE. That’s they call Old Blue Eyes here. Elvis Presley is called MAO WANG, or KING CAT, and nobody knows his real name. I have never figured this out.

So that is why i titled this thread GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEZED. I am perPLEXED.

“When two different languages share a similar writing system expect native speakers to fall back on the pronunciations they know best.”

I once had an encounter with a new student from Japan when I was in high school who weak in English so I tried my best to explain some terms and names to him in Japanese, to assist him in understanding the contents.

On the topic of Asian History, he was clueless about the city of Beijing, in English. So I used the old name of “Peking” instead but he was still perplexed until I asked, “Do you KITAKYO in China, Chukoku?”

And he got it immediately that KITAKYO is Beijing/Peking. I was really perplexed considering that the Japanese army in WW2 called Beijing as Pekin and not KITAKYO. Perhaps this is really a case of falling withing your language comfort zone.

Empress Michiko is called 正田 美智子 or Shoda Misuko .
At least, that’s close to Michiko

正田 美智子 = ZhenTian Meizhizi

I thought it was Meichienzi

————-
You are right, benkaiser. I was typing too fast.
”Chun Tian Mei Zhizi”

They never heard of Michiko here!

I think it’s not correct to say names are misprounced. A Chinese or Taiwanese person is going to read the kanji in a way that comes naturally to them. So Osaka is going to look like “Daban”, for example. Japanese do the same thing, too. Asking a Japanese who “Mao Zedong” was won’t get you very far, but you’ll get a better reaction by saying “Mo Takuto”. When I was teaching students in Yokkaichi about Taiwan, while everyone recognized “Taipei”, place names such as “Taichung” or “Kaohsiung” drew only blank stares. Many of the students would know where I was talking about if I said “Taichu” and “Takao”, however.

Overoften, in answer to your question, kids in China learn kanji by using Pinyin romanization, while students in Taiwan rely on a syllabary similar to kana.

Danny - A Japanese saying “Son Nakayama” instead of Sun Yat-sen is not a mispronunciation. It’s just the way a Japanese person sees the characters, in the same way as Mika Nakashima is “Chung Dao Mei-chia” to a Taiwanese. But the interesting thing about “Son Nakayama” is that it’s the Japanese reading of his name as it’s known to Mandarin speakers, Sun Zhong-shan. Sun Yat-sen would be “Son Issen” in Japanese. Which brings up another question: why are figures such Sun Yat-sen and Chiang Kai-shek known in the West by the Cantonese readings of their names, and not by the Mandarin pronunciations?

a friend tells me: “Once a college professor in Japan bet me there was absolutely no Japanese word
written in kanji that began using the letter P. I promptly named one, we
typed it into a word processor, and it came up as I said, so I won. Want to
venture a guess at what it was?”

___________(guesses anyone)?
1.
2.
3.

kaminoge said: Mika Nakashima might not like it, but to a Taiwanese, Chung Dao Mei-chia is her real name!

no, no, i cannot agree, but i know what you mean. but no, she has only ONE real name, and that is her Japanese name. The Taiwansee and Chinese must learn what her real name is. It’s that simple. But how to teach them, unless the newspapers help out with a new style guide? Yes, the Chinese are reading the kanji correctly, for their understanding, but it is NOT her real name. This is a case of educating people, and I am sure Taiwnese would love to know Ms Nakashima’s real name. The newspapers could help out by writing her name in roman letters after the kanji in the newspapers. Good idea or not? That is all I want to know. But you are right.

Hmmm… I think I have to disagree with this one. I see their real names as Chinese characters, and pronunciation should be in however you know those characters.

All of my Japanese friends in Taiwan go by the Chinese pronunciations, and they like it. It’s nice to have a second name.

It’s just easier. There’s no real need to learn another language to pronounce someone’s name. You’re always going to get the pronunciation wrong anyway.

Can you imagine if we suddenly switched from a normal accent to ‘Nakashima Mika’ in perfect Japanese, instead of the usual ‘Narkashe-ma Mee-ka”? Or what if in Japanese Tomu Kuru-su suddenly became Tom Cruise?

It’d just sound weird.

Interesting observation, but not something to start writing letters about. People are just going to speak the language they know. Besides, it’s fun to have a second name. I like having a Chinese version, and a Japanese name instead of hearing people butcher my English name.

If Taiwanese people can speak Japanese, and they can easily remember the hanzi, they’ll know how to say names both ways. If not, they won’t be speaking to Japanese people anyway, and it won’t matter.

I think a better project would be to try to get Taiwan to use a standard - hopefully pinyin - romanisation system.

If someone calls me, Dunnee, instead of Danny, or Dohnee, instead of Danny, because they are from another country and don’t know how to say Danny, that’s okay, but at least it’s close. But Chung Dao Mei Chia is not even CLOSE to Nakashima Mika. Why not learn her real name? You live in the real world. You don’t live in a Chinese-only universe? I think all people in all countries need to get past their blinders and borders, and learn who the OTHERS are out there. It’s one world now. Neh?

in theory taiwan can use bopomofo for the phonetic pron. it would be silly to use hanzi to phonetically pronounce a name written in kanji.

oh yeah, we japanese also call taipei taihoku more often
chinese call seoul hansing which was its’ name in hanzi
san francisco is jiujingshan which isn’t phonetic at all

English speakers do it too.
Paris is pronounced pa-ree not pe-riss
The “Rio” in Rio de Janerio is pronounce Hio.

A quick check on Jim Breen’s WWWJDIC Japanese-English Dictionary Server http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html came up with these:
童: “pa”, meaning “juvenile, child”;
妃: “pi” - “queen, princess”;
瓶: “pe” - “flower pot, bottle, vial, jar, jug, vat, urn”;
部: “pe” - “section, bureau, dept., class, copy, part, portion, counter for copies of a newspaper or magazine”;
暮: “po” - “livelihood, make a living, spend time”.
Was it one of these?

Just out of curiosity, what is done for people who have their given name in kana rather than kanji?

According to this Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Japan:
“The English word for Japan came to the West from early trade routes. The early Mandarin Chinese or possibly Wu Chinese word for Japan was recorded by Marco Polo as Cipangu. The modern Shanghainese (a Wu Chinese dialect 呉語) pronunciation of characters 日本 (Japan) is still Zeppen [zəʔpən]. The Malay word for Japan, Jepang (modern spelling Jepun), was borrowed from a Chinese language, and this Malay word was encountered by Portuguese traders in Malacca in the 16th century. It is thought the Portuguese traders were the first to bring the word to Europe. It was first recorded in English in 1577 spelled Giapan.”

Jumping on the pile here:
You can say the same things for latin based languages. English/French/Spanish/Italian, etc. Should someone get upset when they are pronouncing the same word with their own language?

“Jumping on the pile here:
You can say the same things for latin based languages. English/French/Spanish/Italian, etc. Should someone get upset when they are pronouncing the same word with their own language?

Comment by Blackbird”

It’s a question only Japanese nationalists and Japanophiles can adequately address.

Regarding Fujimori, I suppose his name might be pronounced using Mandarin rules since I assume he must have a registered kanji name in Japan. Food for thought.

Danny said: “she has only ONE real name, and that is her Japanese name. The Taiwansee and Chinese must learn what her real name is. It’s that simple.”

righto then. No more trips to ‘Bangkok’ then. From now on you’ll be visiting Krungthep Mahanakhon Amonrattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilokphop Noppharatratchathani Burirom-udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amonphiman Awatansathit Sakkathattiya Witsanu Kamprasit. This is the city’s proper name and you must learn it. its that simple. or not really simple at all.

In my opinion, actors or their companies should create new names to sell in other countries like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Chonan Kan (Korean name of Kusanagi Tsuyoshi).

Or make name short and write in alphabet like my name Nao. If 中島美嘉 sell as “Mika”, probably people don’t say anything different.

It is important to keep names familiar or easy for people in different countries. If not, I can’t blame people for reading names incorrectly.

answer to P question: Pekin

tan tan: I personally like to be able to pronounce names properly for most Asian languages. But that’s my choice. I don’t feel like I need to be forced by someone else to do it.

tan tan, good points. This is not about FORCING ANYONE to do anything, and it is really not about daily normal conversation. It is about how NEWSPAPERS and MAGAZINES could better print names of people from foreign countries, so that readers could have the option of knowing, if they wanted to know, the person’s real name in that country. But nobody is forcing anybody to change their habits. I just want to ask newspaper editors in Taiwan or China, or Korea too, if they could add the roman styles of the names after printing the kanji or hanzu or Korean characters. I think the solution is easy. IF ONLY an editor would LISTEN. Most of them are too busy meeting deadlines to even care about this discussion. But the points made above are all very interesting and I really appreciate everyone’s feedback. I plan to do something about this. One day. In the future. In a galaxy far far away….

Danny - In that case I think it’s a good idea. When I read a Chinese name in a newspaper it’s so annoying. The romanisation is never standard. Even if it is, I still don’t know the correct tone (rendering me unable to use that name in Chinese until I look up the real name).

It’s so refreshing to see, I think in Taipei Times it was they wrote names in English followed by hanzi in brackets.

But the way you originally proposed it, it kind of sounded to me like you wanted to “re-educate the imbeciles” or something. I think it was bringing in the example of the woman who didn’t know Nakashima Mika’s real name.

It would be handy if names were printed with their original language alongside simply for interest. But expecting the general population to know these names is unreasonable. I think I got it now.

I’ll get back to you with a way of how to do it.

She is called BIN CHI BOO in Taiwan.
Nobody knows her real Japanese name. I wonder if Ayumi knows they call her BIN CHI BOO here? I am sure someone told her. Funny! Turns out that BIN CHI BOO is the hanzu reading of [HAMA - ZAKI - (AYUMI)]. Hama = Bin, Zaki = Chi and somehow AYUMI = BOO. so she’s BIN CHI BOO, which sounds cool! Just that it’s NOT her real name. I give up.

I was surprised to read this post as Japan is one of the worst offenders in “mispronouncing” names in kanji, which after all is the Chinese script. Consider the Japanese names for Mao Zedong, or any famous Chinese. They are unrecognisable to anyone but the Japanese. Or how the Japanese pronounce Sichuan (Shishuu?), or Beijing (Peck-ingu?). At least in the English speaking world we are abandoning the colonialist practice of imposing our phonetic readings on foreign names, and now try and follow local pronunciations, ie Mumbai . . . I can’t see Japan following this lead. Even Western foreigners’ names are mangled by katakana and no one attempts to render them accurately.

Well, the Chinese don’t knoiw Fukuoka by any name other than Fugan.

“Mumbai” is a pronunciation not even accepted by many locals, so I hardly see why foreigners should rush to embrace it.

It’s hardly colonial to say a place name as you know it, as it is common in countries that have never had colonies.

I think Mao Zedong can be accurately translated as “murderous asshole” in English. Of course, outside China, particularly among wealthy young benificiaries of capitalism, this doesn’t quite translate.