10,000 Yen Trouble
No, it isn’t the weak dollar.
For me it’s the fact that the price of any large ticket item is relayed in 10,000s. As in:
“How much did you pay for that Marc Jacobs bag?”
“I paid five 10,000 yen for it.”
This isn’t so bad if you keep in mind that one 10,000 note is worth roughly about $100 (or slightly less, but for simplicity’s sake, let’s pretend that $100 could buy 10,000 yen). In the Marc Jacobs bag example, it’s easy to simply lop off two zeros and figure out the approximate price in dollars. Things become confusing, however, when you discuss the price of a car, or a house, or even an airline ticket.
If a house costs, oh, say the equivalent of $800,000, no one in Japan is going to say: “The house costs 80,000,000 (eighty million) yen.” Instead, they will say to you: “The house costs 8,000 10,000 yen (eight-thousand ten-thousand yen).” Or, in Japanese: “hassen man.”
I’ve never understood how the 10,000 yen note actually became a default tool for counting currency. Yes, the number 10,000 is part of the same numeric system that we all use when discussing money in the west. But why count 10,000 notes? Why not actually say that a house is “eighty-million yen,” instead of figuring out how many 10,000 yen notes go into 80,000,000?
And you thought learning kanji was bad enough!
Poor Mari….she’s my favorite. If I ever become a j-pop singer and part of the...
Shes definitely at the top of my hot list.
perfeckt 10:10
Tell me about it! It’s such a pain to count in terms of 4 zeros instead of 3! When learning large numbers I wanted to say 800,000 was 800 (sen) and not 80 (man) to the dismay and anger of my teacher! hazukashii
July 7th, 2007 at 8:18 amExactly!
This is why I thought “Huh?!” when Ishihara singled out French for being “a language you can’t count in”. Laughable. When the numbers get up towards a million and beyond, which they frequently do with a currency like the yen, I so often see people counting on their figures just to work out how many zeroes the number has.
Just for being unnecessary, if you don’t believe it’s confusing, ban ‘man’, I say!
July 7th, 2007 at 8:29 amfigures = fingers
July 7th, 2007 at 8:30 amI’m no expert on numbers but I believe that numbers are bunched up in threes in the West (U.S., not U.K.) (thousand = 10^3, million = 10^6, billion = 10^9, etc.), whereas they are bunched up in fours in the Far East (man = 10^4, oku = 10^8, cho = 10^12, etc.).
July 7th, 2007 at 8:30 amInterestingly (or perhaps not that interestingly), some financial documents in Japanese express figures in a way that allows them to be easily translated into millions. For example, 80 million would normally be written 8 sen man (8千万) but it’s not uncommon to see this figure expressed as 80 hyaku man (80百万) in certain types of documents. Not sure why but I suppose it’s done out of an effort to be more universal, at least in the world of finance.
July 7th, 2007 at 8:35 amIn Mandarin Chinese, numbers are counted in the same manner as in Japanese. My Taiwanese wife has little difficulty expressing figures in Japanese, but complains that doing so in English is very difficult.
July 7th, 2007 at 9:22 amUsing either counting system (bunching numbers in threes or fours) seems logical to me… and of course whichever you learn as a child, then the other system will be confusing.
July 7th, 2007 at 9:37 amBut while in the west, a comma is place every three numbers to make counting larger numbers easier, I can’t understand why the same system is used in the east. Would it not be easier for Asians to place the comma every four numbers. Whenever I’ve shown this idea to Japanese friends, they’ve agreed that it’s much easier for them to read a large number (for example 10,0000 = ju-man).
That’s it,Andyroo. Neither system is inherently difficult, I guess. It’s when they become mixed that all hell break’s loose.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:03 amYour translation of 80,000,000 is a bit misleading. Saying “eight-thousand ten-thousand” in Japanese, directly translated, would be “hassen jyuusen” (or jyuuzen? I never remember those). And that would be weird because of the arbitrary jyuu-multiplier in the middle. Instead, as they have their own word for 10,000 it is not a least bit weird, and not directly translatable to “ten-thousand”.
As Ryo and Andyroo pointed out, Japanese just group the digits a bit differently from the Westerners. I really cannot see how you can say right off that our system is better? Of course it is difficult to count in man for westerners, but I believe it is just because it is new and strange and something we’re not used to.
But anyway, I for one really hate to count in man, usually I have to write down the number to translate it to myself.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:11 amThat’s interesting. I remember on a few occasions, like asking what sort of wage friends got in their normal jobs in Japan, so as to compare it to what part-time jobs were paying them in NZ, and there would be an animated discussion between the Japanese , with much counting on fingers, and our Taiwan mate who has very good Japanese interjecting. I have a very clear mental picture of Shoji-san looking up and saying “This is sort of difficult, Tony”. And a discussion about what was meant by million/billion taking place.
I thought they were struggling with the conversion to Kiwi dollars.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:13 amHaving been raised in Canada, I am familiar with the American system of counting and did not realize until several years ago that the British system is slightly different. While people in the Far East bunch numbers in fours, Americans bunch numbers in threes and the Brits (and continental Europe I believe) bunch numbers in sixes (million = 10^6, billion = 10^12, trillion = 10^18). Anyone know of any different counting systems used in other parts of the world?
July 7th, 2007 at 10:22 amBrits use the same billion (and beyond) as America now. Have done for years.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:43 amHere’s what a gentleman in the Guardian had to say on the matter (I’m not vouching for the accuracy of this though – it was a reader’s letter, not an article)
July 7th, 2007 at 10:59 amThanks for the clarification, overoften. Perhaps there is something to the argument that the French prefer to complicate matters when it comes to counting.
July 7th, 2007 at 11:11 amMaking the switch from groups of 3 to groups of 4 can be awkward, not to mention the idea of understanding prices in another currency without trying to convert the amounts mentally. As a soon-to-be-resident of Japan, I’ve got to get in the habit of abandoning comparing Yen to Dollars, because I’m going to be earning wages in Yen!
July 7th, 2007 at 11:35 amAs others have said above, it is not a matter of the 10,000 yen note becoming the standard for counting currency. The Japanese numeric system as a whole is based on 4 zeros (the “man” unit) versus 3 zeros (thousand)in the US. And it is not only for currency but for any large numbers. It is just a matter of getting used to a different system.
Of course, this gets quite complicated when trying to convert yen values counted in “man” units to dollar values counted in “thousand” units and using the 3 number 100 unit as the divisor or multiplier.
July 7th, 2007 at 11:56 amUm, this is a language question. I think you need to understand that in the Japanese language, 10,000 is a numeric “unit”:
1=ichi
10=ju
100=hyaku
1,000=sen
10,000=man
100,000=ju-man
1,000,000=sen-man
So, “ichi man” = 1 X 10,000 =10,000
100,000 = “ju man” or 10 X 10,000 = 100,000
The unit of counting came much before the introduction of the 10,000 yen currency note. It’s just another way of grouping numerical units.
July 7th, 2007 at 12:10 pmOops!
1,000,00 = hyaku-man, of course.
July 7th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
July 7th, 2007 at 12:23 pmMarie: to address your original statement “No, it isn’t the weak dollar.” etc,etc – Arden wishes to disagree with you,hence I’ll pitch her point.
Buying a Hermes scarf or a Prada sack is not an everyday purchase – agreed?
Putting food on the table and making the weekly budget balance is a Necessity – unfortunately
the greenback is sinking like the Titanic – Fact
Let’s all eat at the PX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_exchange
*hope I didn’t misinterpret this missive from the missus…*
rem…..:???:
July 7th, 2007 at 12:54 pmnow I’ll speak for myself – conspicuous consumption in the face of rapidly increasing middle class poverty is obscene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption
I never knew my wife’s Politic’s when I hooked up with her – obviously I assumed it was the status quo LDP – so it came as a mild jolt to me to be told I was way off the mark…she was solidly JCP…I should have guessed with all those Billy Bragg CD’s in her collection..and then it all came around to..Hiroyuki Kodera (Gunma).
My Grandad would be right pleased – seeing he was a paid-up member of the British Bolshevik Bowling Club.
July 7th, 2007 at 1:22 pmthe greenback is sinking like the Titanic – Fact
I’m not watching that closely, but though I think what you are saying may be true relative to the euro and/or pound, the trend has been upwards relative to the yen.
July 7th, 2007 at 2:41 pmBut how is one to say “80 million” in Japanese, if not “hassemman?” “reiten’oku?”
July 7th, 2007 at 5:32 pmAnyway, there was a post about similar issues in various languages on Language Log recently.
I always find it easy for the larger figures because
1 oku yen = US$1 million
1 cho yen = US$10 Bilion
(approx)
Also because as Marie notes 1 man yen = $100 (and 1 yen = 1 cent) so smallish prices are fairly easy to convert too. I don’t have much of a problem converting computer/electronics prices (~20 man ) because you just knock the 0 off and that is the price in $1000s but the problem is at the level of car prices where you are in the hyaku mans.
The way I do it is to simply add a couple of 00s to the numeric price (so a car selling for 519 man is selling for $51900). For some reason this calculation is tricky (and worse IMO when you get so something like a house that is 5235 man)
July 7th, 2007 at 5:39 pmIt’s awkward. When I see very big number with lots of Zero, I first imagine number in English and convert into Japanese. It’s easier.
Thousand = 千(Sen), 10 Thousand = 万(Man), Million = 100 万, Billion = 10 億(Oku), and Thank God, Trillion = 兆(Chou)
But vice versa is difficult. That’s why many Japanese have difficulty understanding very big number with lots of Zero.(They start counting numbers of Zero.) I assume Korean and Chinese use the same numeric system like Japanese.
By the way, some of the readers understand German or French. As you know they count differently up to 100. Especially German counting is sometimes confusing. If you(non German) hears “zwei und dreissig”(two and thirty) you need a moment to accept that’s 32 (not 23) until you get used to. And “quatre-vingt-dix-neuf”(four-twenty-ten-nine) is 99. Of course French people take it for granted.
July 7th, 2007 at 6:54 pmI mean very big number as “larger figures”.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:58 pmTU: “That’s why many Japanese have difficulty understanding very big number with lots of Zero.”
Perhaps this is why Japanese lotteries are so small. (Half kidding!)
July 7th, 2007 at 11:15 pmTofuUnion Not so very long ago in English, (Certainly they still used it during the Napoleonic wars) people also reversed the figures when speaking or writing them.
They would say “The woman was four and thirty years old”. The only place you are likely to come across this now is in Shakespeare or one childs song
“Four and twenty blackbirds were baked in a pie, when the pie was opened, the birds began to sing, now wasn’t that a dainty dish, to set before the king.”
July 8th, 2007 at 6:28 amStill a far cry from the 500,000,000,000 Yugoslav dinar banknote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:500000000000_dinars.jpg
July 8th, 2007 at 6:30 amHmmm… They rhyme the lines. ” twenty – dainty, blackbirds – birds began “.
No wonder, the origin of English language is ancient German of Anglo Saxons (some words from Old Norse and later many Norman French). Will German people someday reverse figures ?
July 8th, 2007 at 8:03 amFor me, US / UK unit of quantity is troublesome. (Ounce, Pound), (Inch, Feet, Yard, Mile), (Cup, Pint, Quart, Gallon), Fahrenheit, Sizes of clothes, and so on.
Unit of quantity in Japan : Kilo Gram, Meter, litter, Centigrade.
July 8th, 2007 at 8:04 amI would buy into this discussion BUT I will say this, amongst the Engineering/Science community (Global)- moi – metric units are de rigeur
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/10/14/021014crbo_books1
remora.
July 8th, 2007 at 9:12 amGreat point. I often envy you English natives about that especially I have to deal a figure more than 1,000,000. I completely agree that a positional notation or place-value notation system should be a numeral system in which each position is related to the next by a constant multiplier, but ours isn’t constant as for over 1,000.
It is still fresh in our minds that Shintaro Ishihara, the Governor of Tokyo, spoke ill of the way how the French people count using the system of residues divided by 20. But I thought he shouldn’t do that because we are birds of a feather as to counting.
July 8th, 2007 at 11:55 amnow itobun, you seem like a very nice person – but I have an Audio Interview (mp3) with the GOV.ishihara claiming that it’s pointless for any henjin to go anywhere near this place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sens%C5%8D-ji
in his words “they might find it interesting but they couldn’t understand its essence”..mono no aware..there is a better way saying this romaji way, but I couldn’t give a toss at the moment – the sublime arrogance of this Clown Ishihara…
remora.
July 8th, 2007 at 2:47 pmTofuUnion, maybe you don’t want to consider that song the proper full rhyme. I don’t think I remember it completely correctly.
I THINK it is something like
Sing a song of Sixpence, a pocketful of Rye
Four and tenty blackbirds baked in a pie
When the pie was opened, the birds began to sing
Now wasn’t that a dainty dish to set before the King.
And the really funny thing about the USA keeping the “Imperial” measurements, was they changed them all. An English pint was different to an American pint. And don’t even bother thinking about all the thread and pitch lengths on nuts and bolts . . . .
Funny that they hold onto it so hard in the US, I wonder if they will ever go metric?.
July 8th, 2007 at 6:08 pm“I really cannot see how you can say right off that our system is better?”
Where did I say the system was better?
I said: “I’ve never understood how the 10,000 yen note actually became a default tool for counting currency.”
And, yes, it’s when you mix the systems that things become confusing. I just think it’s really interesting that the 10,000 yen note is a default for counting currency, and people say things like “hassen man” or “hyaku man.”
I get what you are saying myl — I just wonder how it developed!
As for the absence of the metric system in the US . . . there was a period where you used to see distances posted in miles and kilometers in certain parts of the US when I was a child. I was certain that we would eventually adopt the metric system. I have no idea why we never did.
July 9th, 2007 at 4:59 am“I always find it easy for the larger figures because
1 oku yen = US$1 million
1 cho yen = US$10 Bilion
(approx)
Also because as Marie notes 1 man yen = $100 (and 1 yen = 1 cent) so smallish prices are fairly easy to convert too. I don’t have much of a problem converting computer/electronics prices (~20 man ) because you just knock the 0 off and that is the price in $1000s but the problem is at the level of car prices where you are in the hyaku mans.
The way I do it is to simply add a couple of 00s to the numeric price (so a car selling for 519 man is selling for $51900). For some reason this calculation is tricky (and worse IMO when you get so something like a house that is 5235 man)”
Yes, that’s pretty much what I meant to say! Fortunately I haven’t been in the position lately where I really was considering a big ticket item purchase. But on the rare occasions when people are discussing big numbers with me, it takes me a minute or two to properly grasp the amount in my head.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:03 amI can walk a mile. But I couldn’t tell you if I walked a kilometre. I could tell you how many kilometres an hour we were driving. But I couldn’t tell you how many miles an hour.
I want a car with good miles-per-gallon consumption. But I wouldn’t know what the hell a ‘kilometre-per-litre’ means in the grand scheme of things.
I can tell the cops the robber was 5′8″ tall but all I know is my own height in cms and if you tell me yours, all I can do is sort of compare your number with my number.
I try to forget how much I weight in pounds and I’m blissfully unaware of it in kilos. Though I know that a pound of chicken breast is about 420 grams and I’m more comfortable in grams than onces in cooking. I couldn’t tell you whether a quart or gallon of milk is more or less than a litre or two litre carton.
I figure that 30C plus is hellish but I know that 74F is just perfect, 68F is still great, 62F requires a light sweater or jacket and 92F requires three fans, ice packs and lemonade and a serious rethink about relocating.
In short, I am a “Canadian of a certain age” (which remains the same regardless of Empirical or Metric conversion) who has managed to teeter and trip all over the mid-70’s measurement conversions taught in school.
Add to that to the fact that I’m the first generation of ‘French immersion’ students and I’m burdened with trying to remember what math formula names and theories are in English, how to actually write out dollar amounts ($.45 or .45$ or 1,098 or 1 098) and the complete mental block against some words (i.e. ‘comma’ is, and will always be, ‘virgule’ and ‘auto mechanics’ will always be ‘garagistes’).
Oh, and in French, ‘un milliard’ isn’t ‘one million’. Oh, no. It’s ‘one billion’.
I’m so screwed… .
July 9th, 2007 at 6:41 amHa ha. I guess I’m the same “certain age” age as you Betty. I’m exactly the same way. Distance? Miles. Speed? Kilometres per hour. No idea about Farenheit. Not much sense of measurement in centimetres. But I have to say that living in Japan for as long as I have has much improved my metric sense. I even know my weight in kilograms now!
But despite all those years, I still have the unfortunate habit of converting everything roughly into dollars. Even when I’m speaking to people. It gets confusing when you say to someone, “Yeah, this usually costs hachi-man, but I picked it up for only $600!” Makes perfect sense in my own head.
I like to think I’m currency-ambidextrous.
July 9th, 2007 at 9:47 amI absolutely DO think the Western system of counting is easier than Japanese (or India’s system which is similarly confusing, as I lived there previously).
Teaching counting to my students, anything over ~1,000,000 in Japanese they have to bust out the fingers. And numbers over ~1,000,000 are extremely common in Japanese usage…
To greatly summarize, I teach them that if they can count to 999, they can count to ANY number in English. Each comma is simply assigned a counter: 1 comma=thousand; 2 commas=million and thousand; etc. I deliver it as XXX,XXX,XXX;
nani-nani-nani-MILLION-nani-nani-nani-THOUSAND-nani-nani-nani. The “sugoi!”’s and “kantan!”’s fall like rain.:lol:
Japanese IS easier for small numbers than English though. And counting small numbers in French is an exercise in insanity.
July 10th, 2007 at 12:08 amMy statement is of course based on the fact that the Japanese use a base 1,000 geometric writing notation rather than the base 1,0000 system as someone mentioned above. It is the conflict between these two expressions that makes counting in Japanese so difficult, not the method in itself. Show a Japanese person 100,000,000 and they’ll be counting on their fingers a few seconds. Show them 1,0000,0000 and they could instantly recite the number.
That is why I say counting in English is much easier than Japanese because the 1,000 notation system is the most prevalent in all the world.
July 10th, 2007 at 12:36 amSpeaking of conversion difficulties, interconverting between showa/heisei years and western years can be a pain at times too, especially if you’re not used to it. The extent to which showa/heisei years are still used in Japan was a big surprise to me when I first visited the country as an adult.
July 10th, 2007 at 1:58 amTotally agree with you, RYO.
At this point, I just have to say that I’m glad I’m not the only one with 10,000 yen troubles. Not that I have these problems often, but I’m relieved I’m not the only one with conversion anxiety!
July 10th, 2007 at 2:07 am