Once an Oriental, always an Oriental
I recently subscribed to a great podcast named Botar’s Old Time Radio, which plays episodes of old radio shows like Superman, Burns and Allen, Captain Midnight, Fibber McGee and Molly, etc.
The other day they played a 1941 episode from the Adventures of Superman called Dragons Teeth, which had Clark Kent going into the Chinatown district of Metropolis. The following is a transcript of the text of the story. . .
Narrator:
As our story opens today, Kent and his editor, Perry White, are on their way to the Chinese section of the city, in response to an urgent summons from Doctor Chi Wong, learned scholar and collector of Oriental art. Darkness has fallen, and the narrow winding streets are empty save for a few waif-like figures half hidden in shadowed doorways. Here and there a dim light burns in a store window piled high with bits of jade, lacquered boxes, and all manner of strange curios from a land beyond the sea.The unearthly silence is broken only by the purr of a motorcar.
Listen
Kent:
Isn’t a little strange Dr. Wong didn’t tell you why he wanted to see you Mr. White?White:
Well, you know Orientals, Kent. They don’t say much over the telephone. It’s an instrument of the devil and they don’t trust it.Kent:
Oh, but surely Dr. Wong doesn’t feel that way. Wasn’t he educated here in the United States?White:
Yes. But the Chinese have certain inborn superstitions that even education won’t eradicate. Once an Oriental, always an Oriental.
Oriental is a generic term for most anything Asian. If you look at Japanese history, there was that period of being closed off from the rest of the world but Japan kicked that notion out the window a long time ago. Comic books are funny in that they are a snap shot of popular American culture and understanding at that point in time. They certainly did not reflect what the world was actually like nor would they reflect what was known about the ‘orient.’
May 25th, 2008 at 8:16 pmI once heard the distinction that oriental was only to be used with things and Asian was the correct descriptor for people.
But the whole Superman thing reminds me of the Superman Fleisher Cartoons, specifically “Japoteurs” mis-labeled on the cover of Superman the lost episodes as Jap o tears.
Also on that DVD is the Eleventh Hour where Superman is destroying Japanese War Machines and rescues Lois from their clutches.
We should always point out the context of hate or sheer ignorance that these stereotypes were made and perpetuated under. And show where it is happening today (ie the vilifying of all Muslims as terrorist, the mistaken notion of Sikhs as Muslim, etc.)
http://www.archive.org/details/japoteurs
note that it is my love of animation that has brought me to love Japan.
May 25th, 2008 at 11:14 pmLOL That is awesome. WWII style racial profiling.
May 26th, 2008 at 3:59 pmDecriss, it also depends on where you are. Oriental is very much out of fashion (and generally seen as racist) in the US, but alive and well in England, at least in institutional names (and I think the corresponding term is also ‘ok’ in Germany). But the meanings also change. Asian=East Asian in the US, as does Oriental. Asian=South Asian in England. I forget if Orient maps to all of Asia, South East Asia (i.e., Middle East) or East Asia in British English. Anyone here from England that could let us know?
May 26th, 2008 at 10:15 pmI could never figure out how the term “Oriental” can be considered to be racist.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:31 pm“I could never figure out how the term “Oriental” can be considered to be racist.”
Me too, to be honest. Asian is too unclear (Asia is a big place, after all) and East Asian - while okay on its own terms - simply replaces a term that doesn’t really need to be replaced, I figure.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:51 pm1. I understood what Decriss iterated, i.e. Oriental is for things (china, art, rugs, etc.) and Asian is for people.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:37 pm2. What people want to be called changes over time and I think it’s respectful to go along with peoples’ wishes; e.g. Negro became Black became African-American. Chicano became Latino and Hispanic and Indian became Native American. Oriental is outmoded and displays insensitivity.
God forbid we should be insensitive. Those are word games played by people who are seeking power parasitically (ie. through politics). People are forced to go along, or be labeled insensitive. Meanwhile, as long as the real racists use the right words, everything is hunky-dory.
“Asian” is a ridiculous word to describe a person. It has virtually no meaning. Lumping Gulf Arabs, Nepalese, Tamils, New Guinea tribes, Pakistanis and Japanese together is about as insensitive as one can get.
I don’t know any people in Asia who consider themselves Asians. That identity was concocted by Americans of Asian ancestry who felt the need to get in touch with their roots. It shows just how far they actually are from their roots.
So, it’s Oriental all the way, baby! (Nice hotel in BKK, too)
May 27th, 2008 at 6:47 amI offer the converse… God forbid we actually be *sensitive*. If given the choice between trying to care about others’ wishes and feelings or not, I’ll opt for the former.
“Asian” has it’s place and at other times other terms are more appropriate. I don’t see how Oriental is a more accurate term than Asian! Obviously there are times when using a specific nationality is more accurate than “Asian” and you’d use “Pakistani” or “Nepalese”. Incidentally, I lived in Papua New Guinea and they are Melanesians, not Asian.
If I were describing the population of California, I’d say that there is a mix of Caucasians, African-Americans, Asians and Latinos. If you want to describe every nationality you’ll be rattling names off all day. While different nationalities differ between them, there are commonalities. In the same way that Chinese, Japanese and Thai are Asians and share some commonalities, French, English and Germans share some similarities and we don’t have a problem with calling them all European. Is using the term “African” “ridiculous with virtually no meaning,” also? Certainly Egyptians, Kenyans, Moroccans, and South Africans have as many or more differences as similarities. If you were describing a conference in which people from the continent of Africa were meeting would you list them all by name or say “a conference of Africans”?
As far as “seeking power” goes, that is just laughable. At least in the U.S., minorities of all stripes are the least powerful. Just look in any boardroom or legislature.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:23 amhttp://www.asianamericans.com/ <– there you go. Boring, dry, academic with google ads focused on sex with Asian women. Go figure… .
May 27th, 2008 at 12:33 pmThe term “Oriental” and “Orient” is usually connected with the age of European imperialism and colonialism. I’d imagine that’s why it has fallen out of use. It conjures of images of the mystical Orient and all those stereotypes (Oriental den of pleasure, Oriental despot, etc.).
May 27th, 2008 at 2:15 pmA Comprehensive Guide to East Asians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0ymvgut4Bo
I don’t think I learnt anything - probably because I wasn’t terribly interested to begin with.
remora
May 27th, 2008 at 5:58 pmWell, it is about power. Nobody was offended by Oriental until people who sought power through coercion brought it up. Oriental/Occidental. Simple. Which boardroom shall we look in? Yahoo? Oops….some guy named Yang.
And I don’t recall the phrase Melanesian being bandied about much. If Asian is good enough for Japanese, it’s good enough for New Guinea.
Using Oriental is not actually insensitive, by the way. Telling a guy in a wheelchair that he’s lucky because he always has a place to sit and can roll down hills is insensitive. Using Oriental just reflects age, pedantry, or the simple refusal to kowtow to every whimsical demand of very huckster who claims to represent an entire people.
And tell me, what does being “African” tell you about anyone, other than the continent they are from? Yes, it’s useless as an ethnic or cultural description, which is what “Asian” pretends to be.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:19 pmI wonder what percentage of the Orientals who take offence to the term “Oriental” live in the U.S.
And I further wonder what percentage of them are caucizoid busibodies.
The first time I heard about “Oriental” being racist was here on Japundit and so I went around to all of my Japanese friends and asked them about it. 100% of the people I asked thought it was pretty dumb and got a really good laugh out of it.
Evidently, the Department of Politicial Correctness that went around and asked all the Orientals what they preferred to be called did not talk to the folks that I did.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:35 pmThanks to Betty for that link, if only because I never knew there were Chinese-American soldiers who fought in the Civil War. That was quite interesting.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:31 pmBut to get there, I had to first get past this:
“The term Asian American was used informally by activists in the 1960s who sought an alternative to the term Oriental, arguing that the term was derogatory, and colonialist. Formal usage was introduced by academics in the early 1970s…”
Well, ‘nuf said for my money. If friends of mine wish to be referred to as Asian or Asian American, I have no problem. If they prefer Oriental, I have no problem.
I will not, however, be dictated to by self-appointed guardians of political correctness.
I also have to wonder about the logic of lumping together “hate and sheer ignorance.”
As best I can remember, ignorance is no sin. It’s a lack of knowledge, not to be equated with stupidity (except perhaps to those ignorant of usage).
And I’d no idea anyone was “villifying all Muslims as terrorists.” Why even Ayaan Hirsti Ali, one of the harshest and most eloquent critics of radical Islam, certainly would never condemn an entire religion for the outrages committed by a few of its less-tolerant believers. By the beard of the Prophet those strawmen fall down easily, eh.
Ed, the term Oriental is an English language term. I’d assume that most people who fit under that label and don’t like it would live in English speaking countries. It’s like asking Americans who have no exposure to Japan if they prefer gaijin or gaikokujin. There’s a difference between hearing a term in the abstract and experiencing it applied to you personally in the culture you live in.
These things are rarely neat or nice (i.e., some will object, some won’t), but if it was Asian Americans who objected to the term, who am I to tell them they’re wrong and it doesn’t offend them?
May 27th, 2008 at 10:32 pmDo you really believe that changing the term from Oriental to Asian could possibly result in any increased power? If only it were that easy! What’s it’s really about is respect and self-empowerment (not the attainment of power).
Re: Boardrooms; Yang is the exception which proves the rule. Care to query the Fortune 500 and see if minorities are over- or underrepresented? Or how about an analysis of Congress and state legislatures?
I think that Edward makes a point regarding Asians in Asia and those abroad. I am quite sure that a dichotomy exists. I can see why Japanese who live as the majority in a homogeneous society don’t care what Westerners call them while those living as a minority in a pluralistic society do care. RTN makes good points also in this regard.
“And I don’t recall the phrase [sic] Melanesian being bandied about much. If Asian is good enough for Japanese, it’s good enough for New Guinea.” That summarizes it for me. So if you haven’t heard a term before it isn’t valid. Remind me to run my journal articles by you before I publish them to make sure that everything is correct because if you haven’t heard of it, it must not be right. What this really is about is arrogance.
Bottom line: some people don’t care one whit what you call them. Some people do and it seems that those who do prefer Asian over Oriental. It costs nothing to use the term they prefer but that appears to be too high a price to pay for some. Whatever happened to sensitivity, empathy, and respect?
May 27th, 2008 at 10:36 pmI’m with Mr. Pink.
If a Chinese or Japanese person told me not to call them Oriental or said they preferred to be called something else, then I would be happy to honor their wishes. Here, the only people I have seen calling the term “Oriental” racist are those to whom the term does not apply.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:59 pmYou missed my point, Brian, about Melanesian. What I meant was that the word is not in any standard usage, and not usually even provided as an option when describing ethnic groups in the broader world of “Asian” and “African.” I could talk about Mu, Ainu, or any other ethnic group, and I would be diverting the topic. Melanesianness is not relevant to this discussion.
RTR, your point about calling people what they wish to be called is commonly agreed on - let’s not create false divisions here. The problem is that a few very vocal people often announce, for reasons of their own, that their voices represent the millions or billions others in their ethnic group. Now, isn’t that a bit racist to accept that at face value? Why is it that a few elitists can speak for non-white caucasian ethnic groups - whereas someone attempting to do that for caucasians would be laughed into oblivion? Is that because non-whites are more “all the same” than caucasians?
This is why I don’t accept most of this new-speak rubbish. If someone tells me they want to be called something, fine. On the other hand, if that person tells me that I have to call everyone who shares his skin color the same thing, I’d tell him to F off.
May 28th, 2008 at 8:01 amBy the way, Brian. How does an exception prove a rule? If you can explain that expression, I will concede all further debate.
May 28th, 2008 at 8:26 amAnd who named them “Orientals”? A bunch of elite white guys who were off “discovering” the new world and claiming it for king and country, self, glory, god, and gold. The histories connected to the old ones are at best no better than the downside of PCism. This is why it isn’t worth getting mad over a new name.
Mr. Pink, there are some fairly influential right wing religious wack jobs in the US who feel all muslims are bad. The supporter of McCain that just got in trouble is one of them. Here’s a quote from him:
May 28th, 2008 at 9:19 am“Earlier in the program, Gross asked if Hagee believed that ‘all Muslims have a mandate to kill Christians and Jews,’ to which Hagee replied, ‘Well, the Quran teaches that. Yes, it teaches that very clearly.’”
From:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200802280018
Let’s remember that the Internet ain’t the U.S. and this ain’t a U.S. blog.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:24 amBy the way, RTN, you were kind of selective in your quote there.
Here is a little more of the exchange that led up to it.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:33 amWell, RTN, you’ve got me there. I suppose there’s no arguing that the Romans weren’t a “bunch of elite white guys” although I’m not so sure you’re right on with the whole “`discovering’ the new world” thing. But, yes, they’re the ones who came up with the term, and after some 2,500 years or so it must be time to abandon it.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:59 amAs to “wack jobs” of whatever persuasion, I’ll leave them to you since you seem interested and/or affected. I’m not.
A serious question for any readers with a knowledge of European languages other than English: to what extent do terms in reference to ethnic groups change over time in places where English is not spoken (such as in places where French or Spanish is predominantly spoken) in response to so-called politically correct considerations?
May 29th, 2008 at 2:10 amAnother question (mostly for current residents of Japan): are terms in reference to groups of people (ethnicity, disability, etc.) changing over time in Japan, again in response to PC considerations?
May 29th, 2008 at 2:13 amThat Superman cover reminded me of the site
http://www.superdickery.com/
It seems to be loading really slowly, but it’s worth the wait. There are a multitude of racist comic book covers and stories from the WWII era.
May 29th, 2008 at 4:25 amI hadn’t been to superdickery for a while. It always makes me laugh. The concept is simple: Superman is a dick. There are 93 examples in the gallery called Propaganda Extravaganza. The very first cover there is a classic: “Superman says: You can slap a Jap with war bonds and stamps.”
Hours of fun there!
May 29th, 2008 at 5:12 amI don’t think the full quote changes the point I was making, but as you said, this isn’t a blog on the US and I’ll drop it.
It wasn’t the Romans who used it to refer to people in East Asia. They used it for what we today call the Middle East. It evolved in usage and meaning. It has since evolved in the US (but not England) into a term that is seen as rude when used for people. It’s the nature of language to change, so why spit into the wind about it? If you’re English, then go ahead and keep on using it as British English still apparently uses it.
Ryo, the answer is yes for Japan. Some words in Japanese are becoming gender neutral in terms of their kanji. Kangofu to kangosha (nurse) comes to mind. You also have the gaijin to gaikokujin change (interestingly, somewhat like the N-word among blacks in the US, many (Western) foreigners I know don’t like being called “gaijin” but will use it among themselves (gaijin card, etc.)). I can’t remember the specifics, but I think there are some new terms for people with disabilities as well.
I did a little poking around and it looks like at least some Ainu wish to and do use a different word for themselves, Utari. The examples I saw were mostly about formal organizational name changes and it wasn’t clear to me if they want to change the ethnic group name as well. I’d wondered about that given similar movements in the US and Canada among Native Americans.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:27 amJust to clarify what I meant about this not being the U.S. and JAPUNDIT not being a U.S. blog, it seemed that many of the arguments being made here about the term “oriental” were U.S. based, including the very notion that “oriental” is an unacceptable term.
I found a Wikipedia article that includes the following information:
To describe a person as oriental has since the early 1970s been considered somewhat impolite and politically incorrect in the United States
The term Oriental does not carry any such connotations in the UK, where the word Asian commonly refers to people of Indian/Bangladeshi/Pakistani/Sri Lankan descent
Efforts are underway in Canada to have the term viewed as offensive.
For many, there exists a confusion as to why the term is offensive.
Also:
Oriental is also used as an adjective akin to “eastern”, especially in the Spanish-speaking world.For example, the Philippine island Mindoro is divided into two provinces whose titles include the words “oriental” and “occidental” respectively.
The official name of Uruguay is the República Oriental del Uruguay or Oriental Republic of Uruguay because it is east of the Río de la Plata.
So there you have it. The term did not “fall out of use” on a general scale, it was artificially banned in the United States. Since the Worldwide Web is not the United States and since this is not a U.S. blog, the term is acceptable here on JAPUNDIT.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:00 pmIf you’re English, then go ahead and keep on using it as British English still apparently uses it.
So let me get this straight. . . If you’re English or Asian, you can use the term “oriental,” but others can’t.
How about if an American becomes a nationalized citizen of the U.K.? Is such a person automatically granted dispensation as well?
What if a person looks Asian, but really isn’t? How do we trace bloodlines to determine who is allowed to use the term?
I don’t know. . . All of this sounds kind of. . . um. . . Racist to me. . .
May 29th, 2008 at 12:07 pmRTH, somehow I think you missed the point, which as Edward explains is that oriental is not a coinage of some racist colonial pedigree; it stems from the latin word for “east.”
As to:
“It has since evolved in the US (but not England) into a term that is seen as rude when used for people.”
I have to ask “seen” by whom? And who died and left them in charge, anyway?
If you’re so concerned that someone, somewhere may find you less than wholly empathetic, by all means don’t ever let the word oriental escape your lips ever again.
But don’t flash your PC badge at me, because I’m a callous, insensitive, uncaring child-of-a-single-mom who’ll advise you to stick it where the sun don’t shine.
(Good grief, I doubt I’ve spoken the word oriental in decades, and then probably just to direct some tourist to the Oriental Bazzar to buy souvenirs. But I may have to start using it just out of sheer orneryness.)
May 29th, 2008 at 12:20 pmI am Western - I live in the Orient and I am a Gentleman…so I suppose that makes me a W.O.G.
hey that’s cool with me
remora
May 29th, 2008 at 12:46 pmGreat one, rem!
May 29th, 2008 at 12:54 pmGolly!..that nice of you Edward..thanx.
May 29th, 2008 at 1:17 pmI haven’t said people using the term are racist. Go back and read my first post. I explained that in the US context today, it is generally seen as offensive, but not elsewhere in the English language world. I clearly wrote that as an English language term, the usage and acceptability of it depend on cultural context. I didn’t say that I think it’s racist. When someone wondered when/how it happened, I tried to answer for the US context. But looking at a couple subsequent posts, I see there were a couple places I didn’t specify that it is mostly in the US where some connect it with Western colonialism and empire, etc, starting with some Asian Americans activists around the time of the Civil Rights movement.
If an American became a Brit, he could use it there without causing any issues (although due to cultural training, he might not feel comfortable using it), but if a Brit came to the US and used it, he should expect some people might ask him not to use it. Language depends on the cultural context. Why is it that a Japanese can say “fuck” on Japanese TV but not on American TV? Why can I say “manko” on US TV but not Japanese TV? I’m sure there are British English words that can be said on US TV but not on British TV and visa versa. For a non language example, why is it that you can see Japanese performers in black face on TV (or Little Sambo) but not in the US? It’s all about the context and local conventions and even then can still be messier because big groups rarely agree on everything. People seem to want a clear cut universal answer, but it just doesn’t work like that.
In the Japanese case, it’s similar to Ishihara’s “sangokujin” issue or the switch from gaijin to gaikokujin. Did you object to the old term? Did it matter to you? What about those that it did matter to and pushed for the change? If you disagreed, did you advocate against the change? Did you need to be asked in order for the change to be valid?
Let’s move this to a practical question. Ainu vs Utari. Do all Ainu prefer Utari? How many should it take to cause a change? 10%? 33%? 51%? 66% 90%? 100%? What if only a minority really wants the change and rest don’t care either way? What if a minority opposes it but the majority wants the change? What if 100% prefer it, but the general non-Ainu public and scientific community rejects it? When should common usage change? Should surveys be used (i.e., ask everyone to see if they want the change) or should we rely on their advocacy groups and organizations? To repeat the question others have asked, who should be in charge and decide these things? Or if you prefer, replace Ainu and Utari with gaijin and gaikokujin or toyojin and sangokujin (last pairing isn’t perfect, but you get the idea).
To say “use common sense” doesn’t work because it assumes there is a single common sense out there. So who should be in charge of deciding and how should it be done?
May 29th, 2008 at 3:56 pm“If an American became a Brit..”..well,I’d like to hear more on that experimental hypothetical exercise Sir?
What do you imagine the outcome would be?
Is it a stable entity?
What are it’s thoughts on the EU/US tech tax?
and a lot of other pertinent insightful questions which don’t add a zot to an understanding of North East Asia.
i’m worried that i’m starting to sound off like Mr. Purple aka Busta-Blut-Vessel…
*back later - chow time & stick ball and a few brews*
yours
remora
May 29th, 2008 at 6:54 pmI think RTN sums up the argument pretty well.
“I explained that in the US context today, it is generally seen as offensive, but not elsewhere in the English language world. I clearly wrote that as an English language term, the usage and acceptability of it depend on cultural context.”
Ed and Mr. Pink, you do realize that your point of view comes from having lived as Americans in Japan for quite some time and that you did miss much of the culture wars in the US–the day to day aspect of it that my generation has lived through. For you it is more of a theoretical thing, observed from a distance. And of course, for you, Asians are people living IN Asia, and not the Asian population in the States.
For Asians living in the US (and, yes, I realize how ridiculous the term “Asian” is as it is applied equally to people from East Asia, the subcontinent, etc.), it isn’t really considered good manners any more to use the term “Oriental,” just as it isn’t really good manners to use the term “Negro.” I mean if you want to, go ahead. But it does tend to reveal a somewhat dated person out of touch with mainstream culture.
And while the words we use don’t necessarily tell us anything about a person’s character, the “out of touchness” very well might. (It might also reveal that a person simply hasn’t spent enough time in the US to understand the kinds of social changes that have gone on).
May 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pmThat’s all well and good in a present-day U.S. context. And that particular context has now been made abundantly clear, as usually happens on the internet.
But so what? I don’t think the original post was designed to prompt a discussion of the modern U.S. context, and not just because it’s something that a not inconsiderable number of Japundit’s readers will have no knowledge of or interest in.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:27 pmSo, Superman vs. Godzilla - who would win?
May 29th, 2008 at 11:33 pm“a somewhat dated person out of touch with mainstream culture”
I would wear that badge with pride, at least as it applies to the absurdities of current US or UK (overoften) cultural revisionism.
“It might also reveal that a person simply hasn’t spent enough time in the US to understand the kinds of social changes that have gone on”
It might also reveal that the person is far enough out of the US to see what is and isn’t ridiculous.
It’s my theory that the Orientals will be in the world driver’s seat before too long, after watching the West strangle itself. If you don’t like what those dead white guys did to the world, just wait until those live Chinese guys get their shot.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:47 pm“I don’t think the original post was designed to prompt a discussion of the modern U.S. context, and not just because it’s something that a not inconsiderable number of Japundit’s readers will have no knowledge of or interest in.”
Hey, just adding to the discussion. Someone wanted to know the term was considered offensive to some. RTN gave what I thought was a good explanation and I chimed in. And if people have no interest in the matter, then why comment?
May 30th, 2008 at 1:23 am“It might also reveal that the person is far enough out of the US to see what is and isn’t ridiculous.”
This is very true and it’s always something that stops me from embracing identity politics completely.
Once you actually leave the US (or the UK) and go into the world, the picture changes considerably. But I still maintain that if you don’t have sufficient contact with the US, then it’s hard to understand the culture wars at all.
May 30th, 2008 at 1:24 amo.k. where is this discussion heading?..I don’t see a similarity between US/Japan relations and an equivalent UK/Japan situation..or maybe I’m just myopicallly stupid.
Japan means very little to the current state of the of the world from my blinkered Brit Perspective.
We’ve got a lot of other problems on our plate..such as the increasing role of the Boys from Brussels interfering in British Politics.
or maybe the …. (ah let’s forget it!)
remora
May 30th, 2008 at 2:40 amand I just read back over some of the preceding comments..(ghoti) “current US or UK ” look, why not US/Sweden ? or US/Belgium?..why is it the Brits everytime there is a need to justify an argument?.
I said to you ghoti quite a while ago ..its an English Sunset why the need to balls-it-up by dragging us out of our Golden Slumbers?…I think its blairingly obvious…(the U.S.)
lets get back to talking about Japan..can we?
rem.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:16 amonce a Brit always a Brit..once an American always an American..once a Penguin always a Penguin!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0GvzMCg6bs&feature=related
rem.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:33 amas far as I’m concerned I’m going to call ‘a spade a spade’ & say what I think…. hear goes ‘bollock bollock bollock’… I’m not racist I hate everyone. (joke)
seriously, when is political correctness going to correct itself, different cultures have different ways of saying & doing things which might upset other cultures if you don’t like them then don’t go to those countries/places.
robin
May 30th, 2008 at 6:18 amI say! steady on robyn old girl, a little less of the “Ballack,Ballack,Ballack” if you don’t mind..one might be led into thinking that you are a closet Chelsea supporter.
remora
May 30th, 2008 at 7:25 am“And if people have no interest in the matter, then why comment?”
I’m very interested in the topic, just not the direction it was taking. (i.e. it seemed to start as a discussion on English used worldwide).
The discussion seemed to be boiling down to “You can’t use that word in America”, which is fine as a footnote. But it wasn’t originally the central thrust of the discussion, IMHO.
So I didn’t understand criticising (American) people who’ve lived outside the U.S. for years for being out of touch with contemporary mainstream U.S. culture, or how it fitted into this discussion (as I saw it). How does that invalidate their opinion on the English language?
May 30th, 2008 at 7:48 amWhile I hold all that still true, I will on second thoughts concede the original interjection was a little strong.
For context, it came after reading elsewhere two initially interesting online discussions with no American connection (Japan’s poss. aid flights into China, and the Japanese police) which turned into discussions about America. It happens a lot online, and drives me barmy.
I’ll concede this does have a U.S. angle, but I thought the wider context, which seemed to get stifled, was more interesting.
May 30th, 2008 at 9:21 am“one might be led into thinking that you are a closet Chelsea supporter.”
remora, how dare you insult my intelligence a chelski supporter I think you should wash your mouth out with soap…
very upset
May 30th, 2008 at 10:52 amrobin
rem, I don’t know a lot about Belgium or Sweden, except I once hitched a ride across the former with a female machine gunner (don’t meet many of those back home). And then there’s the language, though I think some variation of oriental is used in all the romance languages.
There is always the tried and true “Western” to use in contrast to Eastern cultures, but that would be the semantic equal of Occi & Ori Ental - and now I worry about using the O-word. In fact, I might avoid all references to direction at all, just to be safe and inoffensive.
May 30th, 2008 at 12:25 pmThere was a culture war in the U.S.?
And as a result some words were banned?
Couldn’t have been much of a war. . .
May 30th, 2008 at 6:18 pmThe thing that irks me the most is when instead of arguing from logic, people are quick to resort to suggestions that anyone who does not agree with their position is a racist, outmoded, insensitive, uncaring about the feelings of others, ignorant of the mystical images and stereotypes the term “oriental” conjures up, arrogant, too stingy to pay the price of consideration demanded by others, lacking in empathy, disrespectful, allied with elite white guys, ill mannered, outdated, out of touch, or, or, or. . . No doubt there will be more to come if this discussion drags on any further.
As I and as others have suggested here, it gets pretty tiresome when people in the U.S. (probably more exactly on the two coasts of the U.S.) start pointing accusatory fingers at those they think have not been rubbed sufficiently raw by the Brillo pad of political correctness.
May 30th, 2008 at 7:44 pm“Couldn’t have been much of a war. . .”
School was fun in the 80s and 90s.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:55 am“I’ll concede this does have a U.S. angle, but I thought the wider context, which seemed to get stifled, was more interesting.”
It is more interesting to me too–and is the kind of thing that Japundit is so good at demonstrating.
And, again, it’s hard for me to completely buy into hard core American identity politics specifically because for me, Asia is . . . in Asia!
But if someone is trying to understand WHY the word “Oriental” has become offensive to some (note, I’m not saying it’s OFFENSIVE to me–just that it carries a loaded connotation now), then one has to understand it in context. That’s pretty much all I’m asking others to understand. Like it or not, this is how the word has been re-configured and this is what it now means in the US. It doesn’t make sense to completely deny this–it’s just not logical.
Also, Ed, please re-read my post. I don’t think I accused you of being part of a vast, white, male conspiracy. Here is what I wrote:
“But it does tend to reveal a somewhat dated person out of touch with mainstream culture.” That’s it.
May 31st, 2008 at 1:01 am56 comments - this post seems to be headed into Yasukuni Territory.
*and just bye the bye what Post holds the top spot for comments?*
rem.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:51 am“…a somewhat dated person out of touch with mainstream culture…”
I think “gramps” would have been more succinct.
May 31st, 2008 at 6:52 amMarie,
“…completely buy into hard core American identity politics…”
Because you seem an intelligent person, I have to wonder why you would consider even partially buying into letting other people tell you what to think.
“..this is how the word has been re-configured…”
RTN asks the salient question (even though his own answer would seem to be Whoever Shouts Loudest): Who decides?
“this is what it now means in the US. It doesn’t make sense to completely deny this–it’s just not logical.”
May 31st, 2008 at 8:13 amSo, Humpty Dumpty wins, end of story? No, sorry. Some of us grumpy old men just don’t surrender that easily; and neither, I suspect, will the English language itself (not even the increasingly wimpy American dialect).
“the term is acceptable here on JAPUNDIT” (Oriental).
But let’s just say, for interests sake, that it wasn’t acceptable - well, it would certainly put the kibosh on my W.O.G. acronym now wouldn’t it?..in which case I would have to substitute Asian for Oriental - and W.O.G. then becomes W.A.G
Hmm? I not sure which I prefer..a WOG? or a WAG?
perhaps the phrase a “waggish wog” is the best description of me.
come on guys try and push the comments-counter closer to the 100 mark.
remora
May 31st, 2008 at 8:24 am“Because you seem an intelligent person, I have to wonder why you would consider even partially buying into letting other people tell you what to think.”
I don’t. I’m racially mixed and also somewhat international which means I understand both sides of the argument. I’m asking you to do so too because I know you are smart.
As for who decides, it’s a GREAT question, Mr. Pink and probably THE question. I love it.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:36 amMarie:
And I never said you did, did I?
May 31st, 2008 at 11:17 amI’m hopeful that this discussion will continue..
But,please…consider “US”
1)My mother drops by this site on a daily basis
2)My numba-won-son (Osa) is just reaching the age where he is itchin & scratchin’ to get up into the mix-of-this-Site
3)Arden (is appalled) at some of the misconceptions and just plain guessing (boners)..about “Japanese Kultura”
4)I worship mathematics - I am quite/very illiterate.
* I wish I could write like.. Jon/Edward/Marie/David/Brian and the rest of the commenting crew - if only I could DO something!!.*
(But I can’t - because I am functionally illiterate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy
thanks
remora
May 31st, 2008 at 2:24 pmWell Marie and Pink - I just re-read those comments.
There is a Heated Discussion and then there is an Outright Argument..well far be it for me to be a quasi-Arbiter (i couldnt give monkee’s)
*It does not serve JAPUNDIT well*
remora
May 31st, 2008 at 4:05 pmEd, if you understood why people argue it is offensive and resent people implying you don’t as you wrote in post 54, then why did you say you don’t understand how in post 5? Or were you simply relating your dislike of the change?
I was on college campuses when PCism was at its height and made plenty of fun of it. PC started out with a noble intention, but evolved into something that can be oppressive. I personally don’t like any of the hyphenated names for different ethnic groups inside countries but prefer to go by citizenship. I intensely dislike identity politics for a variety of reasons, although I can understand why people use them. I can personally lay claim to multiple hyphenated groups and could use their labels but never really do. I come from a multiracial family and depending on the family member and context, almost all of us could be called Oriental somewhere in the English speaking world. So sorry, I’m not one of the elite white urban busy bodies from one of the coasts. In fact, I grew up in a very rural town in the Midwest.
My solution isn’t he who shouts loudest should win. If a group decides, and often it is activists within the group pushing the change (this is true for any movement or group, not just racial or ethnic based ones), that they want a different self-identifier, I’m fine with it within reason. If the group decides the activists don’t speak for them, then they have the ability to speak out against it. Although to be honest, those opponents will probably be other self selected activists. Either way, it’s no skin off my back and I don’t see what I gain by resisting.
Given the change from gaijin to gaikokujin or the Ainu movement to be renamed to a label of their own choosing (Utari), let me ask everyone: what is your solution? Who should decide and when is it valid? Some have written what you don’t like, what do you like for a solution?
May 31st, 2008 at 4:49 pmbut then again, applying the lateral method + a healthy dose of PC and gender considerations.
“Women are undiscovered GODS - men are slaves”
Plato
I would like a third run at this from a different angle Oriental/Occidental/Asian..(mumbai-jumbai stuff!)
#3
I am Western - I live in the Orient and I am a non-specific-gender-Person…so I suppose that makes me a..
W.O.P
I am Western - I live in East Asia and I am a (drone)…so I suppose that makes me a..
W.A.P.
*I won’t disclose what the “P” stands for..its not-fit-for-publication*
yours (thoughtfully)
remora
good night & goo..
May 31st, 2008 at 5:01 pmAs interesting and informative as your bio was, RTN, I fail to understand what it has to do with the discussion here at hand.
If you or others in the U.S. wish to stick your thumbs into the list of banned words (which, by the way also bans “able-bodied,” “Adam and Eve,” “Anglo-American,” “dissenter,” and “yacht”) and pull out a plum and declare, “What a good boy am I,” then have at it. However, people like me start to bristle when the list makers start accusing anyone who does not go along as being a racist, or out of touch, or otherwise flawed as I noted in comment 54, (all of which are direct quotes from comments made by you and others here).
The term “oriental” did not “fall out of use” (which suggests that it was brought down by some natural force, like an apple from a tree). It is in the still incomplete process of being hounded out of use by people who think the proof of sensitivity and tolerance is calling other people insensitive and intolerant, and that being a general pain in the ass is a virtue.
Please take a look at the Wikipedia article I mentioned above.
It says, “Efforts are underway in Canada to have the term viewed as offensive.” Well, if a term is “falling out of use” efforts are not required, are they?
It also says, “For many, there exists a confusion as to why the term is offensive.” Why the confusion? Could it possibly be because the term never was offensive in the first place?
As far as the gaijin and Ainu questions are concerned, I could care less. Besides, why grant others the power to determine your self-worth and day-to-day happiness by the word they use when they refer to you?
May 31st, 2008 at 6:30 pmThat list of banned words is hilarious. It even attempts to dictate what I may or may not call my wife! How about that. My wife herself is the only person who makes that determination, and even then I may choose to adhere to her rules or not if she’s out of earshot.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:49 pmAnd as for the gaijin/gaikokujin call, I’m not offended by those words in the slightest, or indeed any words.
It’s the sentiments behind the words that make me wary. I don’t want people to find an ‘acceptable alternative’, I just want them to stop pointing out my foreign-ness at all. It’s almost never relevant to the conversation, never adds anything, and only ever serves to alienate me. Skirting around with prissy euphemisms just completely misses the point.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:59 pmAlright Remora - I’ll do my part to push the count towards 100…
Here’s what I’ve learned from this dialogue:
1. There are different standards for word choice in different countries. A word which is considered insulting or disrespectful to some people in one country may or may not be considered such in another country. In this case it seems that in homogeneous Japan, there is no great outcry towards the term Oriental whereas in the heterogeneous U.S. (in which minorities are often at a disadvantage in many aspects of society), Oriental is considered out-of-date at best and disrespectful and insulting at worst. Incidentally, no one has made the connection between the term Oriental and the obviously racist picture, caricature, stereotyping, and message in the original post.
2. I reject that just because I am not a specific minority I can not speak up on their behalf. I have had friends of all stripes and persuasions and have listened to them about many issues of language, sensitivity, culture, etc. I feel I have an obligation to speak on their behalf since they have made their collective wishes to me known over the years. I’m not making this stuff up to be the PC police. I would want my friends to speak up for me if an offensive term was used towards my ethnicity even if they were not of the same ethnicity and I do the same for them. This is about awareness and sensitivity.
3. The list of banned words may be entertaining and is a nice rhetorical device but an obvious straw-man. Just because some PC people have taken things to the extreme does not mean that there are no offensive words. Maybe you use the term Native American instead of Indian or African-American instead of black (maybe not). I’m hoping you don’t use the words Chicano for Latino/Hispanic or Negro or colored for African-Americans or retard for mentally challenged and I’m quite sure you never use the word “nigger.” Why? Shouldn’t you be able to? Weren’t they once acceptable (read Tom Sawyer or To Kill a Mockingbird to name just two)? Who forced you to change your word choice? Are you going to march in the streets to reinstate the “N word”? Why not, isn’t it your right? Doesn’t that mean that standards of how we refer to people over time change? Can’t people decide that names given to them by occupiers and colonists aren’t appropriate anymore? Can’t people choose to empower themselves? Does it matter who started the trend (academics, activists, etc.)? If no one follows the originators, the idea will go nowhere, if people follow, then you have trends.
4. Lastly I repeat: if you have a choice of words, one which may or may not offend and one which won’t, why *WOULDN’T* you use the one which won’t? It costs nothing. I think the world would be a better place if we erred on the side of being “too” sensitive rather than reserving our right to offend.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:54 pmBrian, you mention straw men in your third point and then go on to build one in that same point - you question a load of claims that I haven’t seen anyone make. No one’s suggested a free-for-all, have they? Has anyone demanded the right to use a word or term somewhere where it’s reportedly unacceptable?
I think most people accept there are words that are obviously offensive which most people are aware of, and sensitive people avoid. And these words are decided by the very people they offend.
But isn’t it also rather conceited to assume that there would be consensus within that group. One disabled person might tell you s/he has no problem with the term ‘disabled’, while another may hate the word. What then? Change it for the whole group? What if the new ‘acceptable’ term is unacceptable to some?
And let’s not mix up changing social standards with the changing euphemisms handed down by those in authority and those who’d like to be. Euphemisms will continue to change, and very often independently of social standards. There’s no point in patting one’s sensitive self on the back for using a term like, for example, “developmentally challenged” when it’s simply a phrase of the moment, which will in turn fall out of favour and be replaced by another term, at which point “developmentally challenged” will sound hopelessly outdated and clumsy. What is ‘acceptable’ today will probably make people cringe in 20 years. And others, even sooner.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:59 pmBrian, your indictment of Tom Sawyer and To Kill a Mockingbird indicates a serious lack of reading comprehension.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:22 amMight I respectfully suggest a return to high school.
Marie, I think everything useful that can be said here has been. I’m quitting active participation in this particular thread (I will continue reading), but I’ll leave you this one thought:
June 1st, 2008 at 12:30 amThe passive voice is blood brother of obfuscation.
If terms and labels didn’t change over time, comedians like Ben Stiller wouldn’t be so funny.
In any case, neither of the terms used (at least in this case - Oriental or Asian) is inherently offensive. Context is everything.
For example, changing the terms in the following statement doesn’t affect the underlying offensiveness of what is being conveyed:
“Yes. But the Chinese have certain inborn superstitions that even education won’t eradicate. Once an Asian, always an Asian.”
June 1st, 2008 at 12:33 amMr. Pink - I didn’t indict Tom Sawyer or TKaMB, I only indicated that the use of a word in those classic books was acceptable at one time and that the consensus is that the word is no longer acceptable. It was an illustration of the changing standards of language. And if I don’t recall the exact context of a book I read 20 years ago, please forgive me and also forgive me if I don’t find respectful at all your suggestion that I return to high school for not having a photographic memory of books I read 2 decades ago.
Overoften - “I think most people accept there are words that are obviously offensive which most people are aware of, and sensitive people avoid. And these words are decided by the very people they offend.”
I’m not so sure about this. In my experience, Asians and Asian-Americans in the U.S. have indicated to me that Oriental is offensive or at least insensitive and yet there are many who are quite happy to continue to use it seemingly because they can or because they don’t want anyone telling them what to do.
I disagree that I set up a straw-man in my comment. It has not been made clear to me at all how a word can be considered offensive by those arguing that Oriental is just fine (at least in the U.S. context). It seems to me that the argument is that any change in language is just PC run amok and we should be able to use whatever words we want. If that’s the case, how did the N word go from acceptable to offensive?
Lastly I find it ironic that it was intimated that those who disagreed with a position were somehow labelled “illogical” and yet didn’t want to be labelled by others as disrespectful or insensitive.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:53 am“As interesting and informative as your bio was, RTN, I fail to understand what it has to do with the discussion here at hand.”
I had avoided giving that and claiming the right of authenticity. But eventually, I felt the below were being aimed at me, among others. So I pointed out that the assumptions being made were incorrect. If I misunderstood, then I apologize.
“However, people like me start to bristle when the list makers start accusing anyone who does not go along as being a racist, or out of touch, or otherwise flawed as I noted in comment 54, (all of which are direct quotes from comments made by you and others here).”
And yet I never once called anyone reacist, I merely pointed out that usage of the term is found racist by some and explained their reason. So I’m being lumped with them because people don’t like what they stand for. Instead I get attacked for relating the how and why. Then refer to these people that I’m being lumped with:
“As I and as others have suggested here, it gets pretty tiresome when people in the U.S. (probably more exactly on the two coasts of the U.S.) start pointing accusatory fingers at those they think have not been rubbed sufficiently raw by the Brillo pad of political correctness.”
“Here, the only people I have seen calling the term “Oriental” racist are those to whom the term does not apply.”
False assumptions. That’s why I posted what I did.
Separate issue but:
June 1st, 2008 at 3:34 amFYI, in real life no one follows that list. Maybe some textbook publishers do since they need approval from Texas and California, but I’ve never heard of anyone saying things like “you can’t say ‘Adam & Eve’” or “use the word ‘yacht’”. The Grammy’s still have categories for “Actresses” not “Female Actors”. As Brian wrote, that’s a giant straw man.
With all due respect Brian in front of me lies a trashy sports tabloid..as I turn towards the “Personal Ad Section”
what do I spy?
numerous uses of the word “Oriental”-”Busty”-”Hot for it”-…you get the idea.
(*_*)
remora
June 1st, 2008 at 5:19 amwell political correctness hasn’t extended its cold dead hand north to Canada (yet) if this is anything to go by
http://www.tog2.com/
http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080527063829AA23bQf
and jeepers! this looks interesting
http://www.bitterasianmen.com/mail.html
well, I’ve just learnt a new buzz phrase “BAM’s and BAW’s”..or bitter-asian-men & bitter-asian-women maybe that partly explains some of the filthy looks that I’ve had to endure over the years as Arden and I went about our day-to-day business in Japan.
Osamu once remarked to me “Daddy that man said something bad about you..”
You just shrug it off don’t you?…well,I just think “Try that stunt in the High Street of your average English Town and you’ll find yourself hospitalised very quickly”
remora
June 1st, 2008 at 6:27 amanybody for a spot of Oriental Despotism before lunch?
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-orientaldespotism.html
rem
June 1st, 2008 at 6:46 amBut Brian, if this thread has proved anything, it’s that in this global, online context ‘Oriental’ is by no means an ‘obviously offensive word’, by which I meant words that are used as obvious racial epithets.
But then as RYO mentioned, there are plenty of words that are inherently inoffensive, but context is everything - you can make anything sound offensive IF it’s your intention to offend.
Well, that’s not the argument I was making. Perhaps others might’ve. But I meant to say that there are two processes running concurrently - genuine language evolution driven by changing social standards, and language change for its own sake driven by those with nothing better to do. It’s important not to conflate and confuse these two processes just because they’re happening at the same time.
June 1st, 2008 at 8:53 amBrian,
Please stop trying to hitch the word “Oriental” to the bandwagon of offensive terms used in reference to U.S. blacks. Someone who is sensitive to race issues should be aware that many blacks in the U.S. do not appreciate this tactic at all.
Also, your final question is bogus because there still is not inconclusive data or evidence that the term “oriental” is offensive.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:02 pmRTN
And yet I never once called anyone reacist, I merely pointed out that usage of the term is found racist by some and explained their reason.
Ah, yes. And the argument that the term “oriental” is racist is found by some to be the purview of knee-jerk language nazis.
Passive voice is very useful in that it buffers the speaker from all responsibility for any stinking accusation they choose to toss into the ring.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:18 pmLook what I found here (all emphasis mine):
Victoria Shen of the Chinese Canadian National Council takes offence at Ford’s use of the term “Oriental people”.
Many people do not know that “Oriental” is no longer politically correct.
As an Asian-Canadian, I knew that “Oriental” was outdated but did not realize it was offensive and derogatory. I had to phone a dozen friends to find out their opinion. All agreed it was outdated but not a single one found it to be offensive or derogatory to the point of causing tension.
It appears that a while back, some Asian-American activist decided that “Oriental” was not a good word and that “Asian” was more accurate.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:25 pmDrawing parallels with other offensive terms was to illustrate that language and sensibilities change over time. How is that in one instance we just “know” that it’s offensive and in others we don’t? Maybe if there is doubt, you just just err on the side of caution.
I’m not sure what sort of proof you are looking for, and somehow I doubt that anything that could be presented would be accepted anyway. 1) I’ve said that in my experience I’ve been told that the word is outmoded at best and offensive at worst. Is my personal experience invalid? 2) How about finding major U.S. publications (since that is where the word is controversial) which regularly use Oriental for people instead of Asian (not the adds for massage)?
It’s also not clear to me how you delineate “genuine language evolution driven by changing social standards, and language change for its own sake driven by those with nothing better to do.” And my suspicion is that the latter would not go anywhere anyway without a genuine following.
Regarding post #83, I think if you actually follow the link and read the letter to the editor in its entirety you come away with 2 points: 1) using Oriental is not necessarily racist (I actually agree with RYO and Overoften that context and intent do matter) BUT 2) it is still seen as out-dated, outmoded, and impolite. And why, exactly is some random letter to the editor out of an obscure publication in Canada meant to be the final arbiter?
I will concede that using the term is not necessarily racist if you concede that it is also out-dated, outmoded, and impolite.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:02 pmlong time ago and very late in the evening, Arden and I had a swift interchange of opinions.
A: Do you think that Japanese women are exotic?
rem: Are you talking about the “Mysterious Oriental”.. (stereotype) much beloved of Hollywood and Paperback Writers?
A: well…(you know.).that’s the way that Western Men perceive us to be.
rem: Honestly Arden you could be an Eskimo for all I care - in fact, life would be a damned sight simpler if you were.
(meaning, I wouldn’t have had to mortgage myself up to the eyeballs to put a roof over heads - Igloo Construction can’t be that difficult..can it?)
I think that this whole debate/discussion has been worthwhile.
The only time that I have felt slightly uneasy is when it dissends onto a personal level…Borderline Bickering.
*I just beam myself to the Engrish Quadrant and see what’s doing over there.*
remora
June 1st, 2008 at 1:04 pm“Inuit”, you insensitive beast.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:34 pmBrian.
1. Drawing parallels with other offensive terms was to illustrate that language and sensibilities change over time.
The oriental experience is totally distinct and separate from the black experience in the U.S., and so drawing parallels between them is not only invalid but also, as I pointed out, offensive to many black people.
2. How is that in one instance we just “know” that it’s offensive and in others we don’t?
No one said that. But I will say that the campaign to ban the term “oriental” was artificially created by activists.
3. Maybe if there is doubt, you just just err on the side of caution.
Doubtful claims should be treated with doubt, just as we are doing here.
4. Is my personal experience invalid?
As the basis of demanding that people who have never met you and your friends change their behavior? Yes.
5. How about finding major U.S. publications (since that is where the word is controversial) which regularly use Oriental for people instead of Asian (not the adds for massage)?
You are the one demanding/urging others to change their behavior. The burden of proof is upon you.
6. Regarding post #83.
What the text says is quite clear.
a. Many people do not know that “Oriental” is no longer politically correct.
b. As an Asian-Canadian, [the writer] knew that “Oriental” was outdated but did not realize it was offensive and derogatory.
c. [The writer] had to phone a dozen friends to find out their opinion. All agreed it was outdated but not a single one found it to be offensive or derogatory to the point of causing tension.
d. [To the writer it] appears that a while back, some Asian-American activist decided that “Oriental” was not a good word and that “Asian” was more accurate.
To me this means we are discussing an issue that was artificially created by some Asian-American activist(s) that is so far outside the mainstream that it did not even register in the minds of people of Asian heritage living just over the border in Canada.
7. And why, exactly is some random letter to the editor out of an obscure publication in Canada meant to be the final arbiter?
As opposed to private conversations you may have had with unnamed acquaintances of yours? Also, Brian, weren’t you the one who became upset about mocking the messenger when someone made disparaging remarks about NPR a short while back?
8. I will concede that using the term is not necessarily racist if you concede that it is also out-dated, outmoded, and impolite.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:45 pmAbsolutely not.
It can’t be both impolite AND inoffensive, it has to be one or the other. And if isn’t racist, on what other level can it possibly be offensive?
I think maybe there’s a cultural divide here. I’m just not getting it. I’ll give in and concede that it’s “outdated, outmoded and impolite”… where you live. Though it isn’t where I’m from or where I live.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:47 pmAnd that is the end of that.
Regarding the comment count, I believe this sets the record for the most valid comments for a post in 3.5 years. There was one article that went over 100 comments some time back, but about half of the comments were by the same person who created multiple personae and spent about two weeks carrying on a conversation with himself.
Thanks to everyone for participating in the discussion.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:56 pm